SPEAKER_01: 0:36

What's going on, everyone? Welcome back to That's Delivered. I'm your host, Truck and Ray. We have another episode here for you today. We're going to talk about real freight, real experiences from people actually living this industry. Today I've got Jason Mishika with me, the freight broker based in Minnesota who's dealt firsthand with freight fraud, cargo theft, and the challenges of trying to build something legit in the market. It isn't always fair. We're going to talk about what he's seen, what he's learned, uh, maybe even the hard way. And what people need to understand if they're thinking about getting into the freight brokering business, Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate you. Uh, let's start from the beginning. How are you doing today, Jason?

SPEAKER_00: 1:19

Good, good. Thanks for having me on. Uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And uh I'll tell you what, you're hitting on some key topics, ironically enough, over the last uh four days, been dealing with a situation directly related to what you're talking about. So we actually just got it all sorted out. So it's uh, you know, anytime we start getting into freight fraud, double brokering, obviously theft of loads, um alarm bells kind of go off everywhere. So we uh we have you know some pretty specific processes that we follow and folks that we reach out to to make sure we're covering all our bases on that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 1:56

Yeah, man, that's that's crazy. It's almost gonna be a daily thing because of how much people are getting involved and thinking that, hey, this is the way to go and that I can just steal this freight and nobody cares except for the ones that are affected. Um, and nothing will happen to me. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 2:13

Yeah, yeah, it's it's become pretty rampant. So what would you like me to start with first? You want to talk a little bit about uh kind of how I got into this business or do you want to talk about specifics?

SPEAKER_01: 2:22

Yeah, yeah. So what's your background?

SPEAKER_00: 2:24

Yeah, so I actually worked in the LTL industry for years and years, um, starting in 2000, let's see, 2004. Yeah, 2004 started out at uh yellow, which became part of YRC Freight or YRT Worldwide. Um worked in operations there for 10 or 11 years. And uh I just got a message from a hockey coach saying, I got time to talk now. I'm like, you're out of luck, pal. Um so uh worked there in operations for about uh 11 years, then moved over to the sales side, uh customer side, and then worked with uh customer service as well as sales uh with YRC for an additional, I want to say four years, something like that. So um, let's see, until 2017. So yeah, no, probably about three years on that side. So anyway, um ended up running into uh my current company during that time. Um my parent company, Stein Industries, was doing projects and they were running projects and things like that with YRC. So they were a customer of mine. And uh as I got to know their logistics folks better, um, you know, they they eventually ended up offering me position as we started to build out uh 10 logistics. So uh one thing led to another, and here I am now. So our company essentially the best way to describe it is was the logistics department of our sister companies. And uh uh quite a while back, somebody along the way said, Hey, you know what? Let's uh let's start doing this for for you know other other folks outside of our four walls. So they got it all set up, and uh, and I've been there since uh since 2017. And it's been a great run, great company to work with. Uh the folks that we work with with our parent organization are fantastic, and uh it's been a lot of fun, kind of like building a startup within a 110-year-old parent company. So uh kind of the best of both worlds, so to speak. So it's been a it's been a cool ride, but kind of related to what you were talking about at the intro. Um, obviously, as we have uh built out our company and made sure that we have protections in place and vetting processes in place, and just you know, obviously protecting ourselves and our customers, um, as well as the other carriers that we work with from this type of activity is a huge part of the industry and seems to become more so every day, uh for sure. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 4:56

So on the lines of guidance, uh, who's helped you um along the way or did you kind of figure out on your own?

SPEAKER_00: 5:03

So on the brokerage side, you know, obviously a lot of folks, you know, kind of like you and I met, right? So um, you know, our we we met through a mutual friend in the industry. Um, and I actually have a lot of folks that I connect with that way, right? Whether they were custom current or former customers, uh, current or former employees. Um, so for instance, we've had uh three different company presidents over the last eight years um in different, you know, differing uh situations. And I talk to those guys almost on a weekly basis. I mean, there's a lot of collaboration that goes on, even though they're no longer with our organization. You know, we talk about industry trends, we talk about how are we making sure we're protecting ourselves from risk. Um, and then, you know, obviously doing research with uh with places like TIA, with uh freight waves, a lot of great information out there on a regular basis, uh, transport topics, that stuff all the time, right? So we're always looking to uh to sharpen the sharpen the sword and make sure that we're uh that we're being vigilant about um just staying current. And that's a huge key, right? Is can't always wait for information to come to you. You got to seek it out. So uh as of for most of the folks in your in your audience are uh listening to this for a reason, right?

SPEAKER_01: 6:19

That's right. So what's uh what's a day look like? Uh, you know, for you, a typical day. Uh walk us through that for us.

SPEAKER_00: 6:26

Yeah, absolutely. So in my current role, so I'm the director of sales for our organization. Um, so most of my time is spent interacting with customers, whether they be prospective customers or customers we currently work with, making sure their needs are being met, seeing if there are uh new opportunities for us to strengthen those relationships, build those out even further. Um, and then, you know, obviously looking for new business on a regular basis. I uh my role is a little bit fluid in that I end up uh interacting with our operations pretty significantly as well, obviously being there the whole time and knowing everybody. Um, so it can depend on the day, right? Some days I'm I'm wearing an operations hat more so, and other days I'm wearing the uh the sales hat. So it just depends on what we're dealing with uh on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis, and what we've got scheduled out. So um, you know, kind of what I was alluding to earlier, we had a uh we actually had a breakdown um last week. Uh unfortunately, the tractor that our carrier um is utilizing had a pretty major uh mechanical malfunction, put him out of service. He was luckily lucky enough to be able to limp it to uh to a truck stop, you know, like a pilot. And uh so we had to get a wrecker in, cage the brakes a little way from the track the trailer. At a certain point, we had some alarm bells going off because the carrier stopped communicating with us, and that's really where we start raising some flags, right? Like, so that's you know, in speaking about like freight fraud as an example. So my team brought that to my attention right away. Obviously, I'm the one that interacts the most with with the customer. And uh, so I was communicating with the customer communicating with the customer as well as then my team and I were communicating with the with the carrier as much as we could get them to respond. Um, but that's where you know we start elevating the level of concern, right? Is when we stop getting communication. Um so on a day like that, obviously most of my attention shifts from where normally I might be, you know, calling possible customers or talking to existing customers on the phone or setting up meetings and and those kind of things. We're doing stuff like this even. Um, my attention then immediately shifts away because timing is is of the essence, right? Um, so that's an example where that's a little bit of an out-of-the-ordinary day. Um, we've been very lucky to uh to avoid the the theft of any loads. Um we have we've been close. And I mean, uh, you know, anybody who's been in this industry as long as as even we have, with you know, our short tenure of eight years, uh the amount of volume that we move, um, that's always a possibility. So um really it's just a matter of making sure SLPs are in place and then following those to the letter.

SPEAKER_01: 9:17

So it's so it's possible, especially in this day and time. Happens all the time. I mean, that to have to be at zero, have zero theft, it's possible.

SPEAKER_00: 9:27

Yeah, again, I'm gonna I gotta bunk the s I just keep knocking on one at yeah, so wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

That's great.

SPEAKER_00: 9:36

Yeah, it's the same thing like when we talk about damage claims and and you know any kind of OSD type of situation, right? Which which freight theft, unfortunately, is part of that world, is I always kind of, you know, when I'm talking to customers as an example and saying, look, you know, for me to if somebody walks in and says, hey, we're never gonna have a damage claim, unless you're shipping steel ingots in a box, like even that, I mean, it's you move stuff around your living room long enough, you're gonna ding a wall, you're gonna, you know, break a leg off a chair or something. What something is going to happen when you move things the way that we all do, right? Point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible. Um, but it would be naive to think that nothing's ever gonna go sideways. So it's a matter of saying, okay. Just don't move anything. Yeah, yeah, right. If everything, if everything was just manufactured right where, you know, right where it needed to be, that'd be that'd be great. But then uh people like me and people like you'd probably be out of a job. So but uh yeah, so it's it's a matter of looking and saying, you know, what what do we do when we see warning signs for that? Again, whether it be you know damages, whether it be you know lost items, whether it be a theft uh risk. And so that's why I use that example is we didn't have a theft situation, but as things progressed, you know, all of a sudden a carrier drops off uh communication-wise. That's a red flag for us right away to be like, okay, we gotta have all eyes on this thing. What's going on? Why is the carrier no longer communicating? In this particular case, I think it was just a situation where the driver uh was frustrated with the situation, obviously a huge hit to his business. And uh, so that's impactful. So we need to be, you know, as the broker, we need to be supportive of that and uh and just make sure that we engage the right way.

SPEAKER_01: 11:20

So um get desperate, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:24

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, you know, a lot of times it's about diffusing the situation, right? De-escalation is is key. Um, and so I think for brokers especially, I think that we have we have a responsibility to try to help the carriers. And I think unfortunately, a lot of the relationships out there between brokers and carriers is is pretty sour. Um, and I think that there's, you know, there's responsibility on both sides of that that relationship. And so obviously uh my folks and myself, we want to control what we can control, which is our behavior and the way that we communicate. And uh, and so you know, when I see folks say, oh, this carrier's not communicating, you know, and I go, well, hey, let's put ourselves in that driver's position, right? In this particular case, it's it's a single owner operator. He just spent$4,500 trying to fix this truck and it didn't work. You know, what do you think his headspace is like right now? Right? This is his business, this is livelihood. This is how he's gonna feed his family and put a roof over their heads, and it's going sideways in a big way right now. And he didn't necessarily do anything wrong, it's just luck of the draw, right? So reaching out that way, the carrier immediately started communicating again. So, hey, how can we help? You know, how can we help the situation? What can we do for you? Uh, you know, we're all in this together. So those can be some big key things, as opposed to, you know, coming at him with guns blazing and saying, Well, you're out of line, and you know, everything else, it's like the guy's already having a bad day, let's not make it worse. And then sure enough, you know, we got the communication going and we're able to kind of work through that. So that's a big key.

SPEAKER_01: 13:00

That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Great job. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

Speaking, yeah, thank you. In speaking to um, you know, the I mean, as much as I would love to say it's all us, some of it is luck, but the again going back to that what we control, right? Is is avoiding freight theft, avoiding fraud.

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

Um what's the two main SOPs that you go to? Like uh that you know, I know you want to share your secrets, but um what can you share?

SPEAKER_00: 13:31

Nothing that nothing that we have is is a real big secret when it comes to fraud avoidance, right? So um the big keys are making sure we use the tools that are out there. Um, so the big ones I would say is utilizing um so you know a fraud prevention software system. There are several out there that are pretty robust. Um, you know, highway's a big one, uh, carrier 411 is another. Obviously, trucker tools has a lot of different tools out there for brokers and for carriers. You know, I mean it's a two-way street too, right? It's not like when people hear about freight theft, they think like somebody takes a trailer full of stuff and you know, runs it to some dark warehouse somewhere. You know, you even see like farmers insurance commercials and things like that. But what happens more often than not, the fraud that we see um has nothing to do with stealing physical items. It's about stealing identity of both carriers and brokerages, right? So we have um things in place as well where uh software programs that just constantly look out there and say, hey, is our MC being used um, you know, somewhere by somebody else, by a by a bad actor? Or are the carriers that we're working with um have it maybe somebody has stolen their MC or DOT number and is representing that they're that person. So as we start to line things up, all of a sudden we're paying the wrong, we're paying the wrong party. Um so there's software programs to help us with that. And then from when we get into the physical verification side of that, right? So when we line up a new carrier that we haven't worked with in the past, maybe on a new lane or it's a new commodity type or a new mode of transportation, you know, hey, we normally run vans over this lane and now we need flatbeds, right? Uh, maybe the customer's product that they need to move has changed or the unload has changed. Uh, so when we're sourcing those new partners, um, there's several different pieces. One is we're doing VIN verification on any new setup. So if we set up a new carrier and they're gonna pick something up, we actually get an image of their uh vehicle identification plate on that tractor. Um, and then it's geolocated as well. So we can tell that they are who they say they are, they're where they say they are, and that the tractor they're using is the tractor that they say they're using that is then registered under their COI that they're sending us uh for their insurance. So it's that's a pretty foolproof way to make sure who you're talking to is really who you're talking to.

SPEAKER_01: 15:57

Um so when when is when is there a point that you realize, hey, this is going well, I guess the most sensitive area when you do that um transaction that you can tell this might go bad, where is the most sensitive area that we can probably strengthen in this as an industry?

SPEAKER_00: 16:12

Yeah, so initially, obviously during setup, right? When we're when we're first starting the relationship between uh the brokerage and the carrier is making sure, you know, if there are things that feel off, they probably are, right? And so then asking more questions. We don't want to just, you know, 86 that relationship immediately. But when you hear something, you're like, well, wait a minute, that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Um start digging, right? Start asking more questions, start making sure that everything is on the up and up. And and that responsibility um that brokerages have, it also protects the carriers that they work with or that they could potentially work with, right? Because if a carrier has their identification stolen, and now we're allowing that bad actor to to you know take money out of the industry, it's it's hurting that carrier's reputation as well. So it's on us to make sure that we do everything um to help protect everybody. Um, so that's a big piece.

SPEAKER_01: 17:12

Okay. I like it. I mean, that's it affects a lot of people. I mean, you think about the aftermath and who pays, who suffers. Uh, when a load is stolen or freight fraud happens, uh, who takes who's taking the biggest hit? What do you what would you say?

SPEAKER_00: 17:25

So it's, you know, it can depend on the situation, right? So we have seen situations of not a load being stolen, but where identity identities can be stolen. Um, you know, where we've had to pay carriers um because somebody will line up a load, you know, like a double brokering type type of a situation, right? Where uh a bad actor, a brokerage is has somebody else's MC that they're using, they're representing themselves as um a carrier when they're not a carrier, and then they double broker that load to an actual carrier who's taking that load somewhere. And of course, the red flags that we would see on that are like if somebody when things are too good to be true, they probably are, is a great indicator of that. So just to kind of map that out, right? Bad actor represents themselves as a carrier with a stolen MC. So they take, they take a, you know, we we say, oh, hey, here's a load for you guys to carry for us. They obviously don't actually physically go pick up that load. They then turn around and call a legitimate carrier and say, Hey, I need you to pick this load up going from Dallas to, you know, whatever, going from Dallas to Kansas City. And so that carrier, thinking, oh, okay, I'm working with this legitimate broke, this legitimate brokerage. Now there's two different identities being stolen. They go pick up that load, they run it to Kansas City, they drop it off, right? That bad actor says, Okay, sounds great. We'll get you paid shortly. They invoice my company, representing themselves as a carrier. We pay them, they never pay the carrier who actually moved the freight, right? So then eventually the carrier goes, Well, hey, all of a sudden nobody's communicating with us. And we're saying, Hey, where's the pod? And we can't get a hold of anybody, right? And so you end up in this, this or they or they pres, you know, they submit a a false, a falsified or a forged POD. And now you've got we're not gonna be uh getting paid by our uh by our customer, but yet we still need to pay that carrier, right? So it ends up being a situation where everybody loses except for obviously the bad actor in between. So the big keys for us are then reporting that. What we end up finding out is in researching those those VIN numbers, um, is making sure that you know once a VIN number's been stolen, it doesn't take very long for everybody to figure that out, hopefully, especially if everybody's doing their due diligence. So it it can limit the damage. Um, we've also had um bad actors represent themselves as customers, where they're saying, hey, we're the shipper, come pick up at our location at X, Y, and Z. Um, and we had one, I want to say back in 20, late 2017, early 2018, when we were first getting started out, we had a customer. Turned out that the actual customer had no idea. They thought that they were working with somebody else. That that place ended up being investigated by the FBI. I know that for a fact because they've called us asking questions. But uh uh essentially a fraudulent organization. Represented themselves as a shipper. The actual shipper had no idea that this was happening. They thought they were just working with a legitimate brokerage. And so same thing, right? Is that we we were running loads, paying carriers. And after a little bit, we're like, well, wait a minute, how come this customer's not paying their invoices? Well, then obviously digging deeper, we found out, oh, the the person that the the entity that we've been interacting with isn't actually the shipper. They're this shadow organization that represented themselves as the shipper when really it's somebody else. So it's uh it's amazing how creative some of these criminals can be. Uh, and you know, and they build a lot of uh they build a lot of uh ways to shadow that or ways to to misrepresent themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 21:27

So that's sad for the industry. What do you think this is headed? How does someone stay alive in a tough market like this? What do you think? Uh what's your predictions, I guess, as to how it may get better or what people can do?

SPEAKER_00: 21:37

Yeah. So I think the biggest thing is building great relationships with with organizations, right? So the less I have to go and work with a carrier that I've never heard of before, the less that a carrier has to go and work with a brokerage that they've never heard of before, um, or don't have a pre-existing relationship, right? The the less often that happens, the better off you're gonna be, as a general rule, right? Um when it comes to especially the fraudulent activity. Uh, and then just making sure that, you know, we we always trust but verify, right? Um so even if I'm working with a carrier that I've worked with for a long time, or if I'm working with a customer that I've worked with for a long time, continue to look at, hey, what what are their credit ratings looking like? You know, are they starting to get into a situation where they'd be tempted to to do some things that aren't on the up and up um to keep things afloat? I mean I think a lot of the pressures that we see in a in a market like it's been for the last three and a half years is that when things when thing when it's easy to make money in a great market, people are less tempted to do fraudulent things, you know, because they can just go make money on the up and up. Um, I think the harder the market gets and the longer it goes, the more tempted people are to try to do some things to uh to circumvent the process.

SPEAKER_01: 22:55

So it's uh I kind of think about it on a on a I guess more personal level. I know when the economy is doing well, uh you don't see so many people doing weird things like towing their cars with with a uh with a rope.

SPEAKER_00: 23:11

Yep, you're right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:13

Yeah, they get desperate and they start doing all kinds of clever things that get the job done. And uh you're like, man, that's not safe.

SPEAKER_00: 23:20

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and as far as you know, I mean, every time a bad actor creates a way to to to commit a crime, the industry in you know self-preservation mode says, Hey, we gotta find a way to keep this from happening. So we do that, and everybody, you know, everybody gets on board with that. And then, you know, another month, two, three later, oh, now every every criminal out there has come up with a new way to circumvent that process, right? So every time that happens, it's always this this pendulum swing, right? And that's been going on since privateers, you know, like think about shipping across the Atlantic Ocean from Europe to the New World. That's what it was going on then. So they found, you know, we've been finding ways to solve those problems since what, the 1600s, 1500s?

SPEAKER_01: 24:08

So I think too, sharing the stories um of what people may try to do so that people can be more aware as to some of the tricks that are going on out there. So, like you sharing your story, uh letting people know that they're not alone, um, I think it's gonna be huge. I think um long interviews, uh, podcasts and things like that have helped so many people. So, no, you're you're definitely um a soldier out there for a force for good in the trucking industry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:37

Well, I think you make a great point there, right? Is that if you know, if folks, especially folks are starting out, is that such a great point? Is that making sure you build a network of people that you know that you can ask questions. Hey, have you ever seen this? What are some things that have happened? Paying attention to podcasts, paying attention to news articles, right? It's one of those things that we feel like, oh, I'm kind of wasting my time by researching all this stuff, and you're really not, because you're just building your experience, you're building your knowledge based on things that other people have had to go through, right? Kind of like when we're teaching our kids, it's like I don't want my kids to make the same mistakes I made throughout life. I want them to learn from my mistakes. It's the same thing in business, right? We want we'll be able to help each other out. Uh, you know, everybody helping everybody is only gonna make the whole industry better off. So yeah, uh, nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01: 25:21

You know, the criminals are talking amongst each other, they're telling each other what they're doing, you know, hey, try this, do that. So, you know, the good guys, we gotta we gotta stick together too, you know. We gotta help you. 100%. 100%. So what advice do you have for people that are considering being in a vocal brokering business or just helping out and say, you know, I'm young, I want to try this, um, want to get into an industry that I'm not sure of. If someone's thinking about becoming a freight broker today, what would you tell them or what would you need them to know?

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

So I have uh three young sons, right? Uh 21 through 16. And if they were to walk up to me tomorrow and say, hey, you know what? I want to do what you do, I want to run a brokerage, or I want to own a brokerage, or I want to start a brokerage, the first thing I would say is learn the industry, right? Either go work at a brokerage or go work for a carrier or go drive truck, right? I mean, you want to learn it. Doesn't I get a lot of folks that do ask that, right? And the biggest thing that I say to folks all the time is you need to know it before you can work in it. It'd be like it'd be like if somebody had never cooked a meal in their life and they want to go open a restaurant, right? You need to know it.

SPEAKER_01: 26:28

I like that. I like those common sense ones.

SPEAKER_00: 26:31

And I think I think a lot of folks think, oh, I'm gonna go, you know, I got a buddy that works for brokerage and they make tons of money and it's like, well, you know, I'm 25 years in almost. What is it? It's 2020, uh 19, 20 years in, 20 years of practice, right? 20 years of experiences, it's 20 years of of relationship building and and asking questions. So it might look like a piece of cake when you're looking at somebody who's practiced for 20 years. It's the same thing if I'm talking to a driver and you know they back a 53-foot trailer into a dock between two other trailers like it's nothing, right? I might look at that and be like, oh, well, this should be a piece of cake. Well, I'll probably rip all three of those trailers apart if I don't have the experience, right?

SPEAKER_01: 27:14

16 pull-ups.

SPEAKER_00: 27:15

Yeah, exactly. Well, we've all seen it, right? Yeah. When when the guy that's brand new is like on his 40th attempt to bump the dock, and you're like, all right, we're all running out of time here. So I think that's the biggest thing is that as just to be patient and start start on step one, don't try to start on step 20. Um, I think the barriers to entry for becoming a brokerage are very low. But the barriers to entry to becoming a sex, a successful broker are that experience piece. And I think people are like, oh, well, I can just go get my MC and file for my bond and grab some insurance and I'm good to go. I can just start right away. But I'm not saying that has never worked. I'm just saying that that's when we start talking about you get yourself in some really sticky situations because now you don't have the experience to recognize those fraud red flags, right? And you don't have the network to reach out to people and say, hey, who do I talk to? I've got a legal situation here. And it's putting you at risk, it's putting anybody that work, you know, your carriers that you're working with at risk, putting your customers at risk, of course. So I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01: 28:23

How bad can it get for your livelihood? Um, let's say you do have a broker and you got your own insurance bond and things like that. Can someone lose their home?

SPEAKER_00: 28:30

They can lose their home. Especially, you know, I mean, you think about it. If you're starting out as a brokerage, you're probably starting as an LLC. You are personally liable. They can go after your personal assets because that's what you're gonna have to use to back up for cash flow purposes and things like that. So yeah, you could lose your home. You could, I mean, it's food off the table. And not only that, when you're talking about fraud prevention, if you don't take the proper steps when the red flags come, you could be culpable on a criminal level, right? So just just not knowing isn't an excuse. And the legal system isn't gonna see us as an excuse either, right? Because I mean you think about little, and it's not just fraud, right? Like, so if if I have a carrier that's running late, they have a breakdown and they're running late, and I as a broker start calling that driver and I say, Boy, you better make up that time. My customer needs that freight right now. What am I doing? I'm I'm putting that person's safety. It's not his fault that the I mean, trucks break down. Yeah, welcome to trucking, right? You get brokers that'll do that, they'll start pressuring a driver to violate hours of service rules. Next thing you know, that guy's in a wreck, he's hurting somebody, he's hurting himself, he's putting property and lives in danger. That's a criminal issue, you know. So it's not, you know, somebody who's never worked in the industry walks in and says, Oh, I'm gonna be a broker, it's a piece of cake. And they don't know that it's illegal for a broker to pressure a driver that way. It's not just to your home, you're risking, you're risking, you might be might be in rough shape. So that would be my recommendation to anybody starting out is hey, get to know the industry for go work at a brokerage first, or go work at a go work for a carrier, or go work with a carrier, work in the industry, work at a shipper, get to know all sides. I'm not saying you gotta go do it for 20 years, but you're you need to have that background in order to be successful and to keep everybody safe, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 30:23

Um, so sometimes people just need to believe in themselves. I know it may sound a little naive, but um you know, just uh encouraging them to do the job right um goes a long way. I know as a truck driver myself, uh you can really hammer somebody. I've seen it happen, I've seen people do it, but that that stuff is short-lived. Um, I'm glad you mentioned that. Um, you know, that relationship that the broker has with the the truck driver, and you you hear about these incidents going online where people get hurt. I'm not getting bad, you know, bashing the broker, but you don't know why that person has that pressure on them. Why why would they why would they be doing that? Um you know, uh texting and driving and possibly even using substance to keep going. You know, I I can stay awake if I do this. Yeah, so great point. I like that. You know, that's one that we think about the freight brokering and you touching on that. There's another side that's actually more um the one that's been around the longest is the relationship with the the truck driver and the broker. You gotta have a healthy one.

SPEAKER_00: 31:33

Yeah, absolutely. We're all in together. I last time I checked, we don't own a single truck. So tough for me to move my customers' materials across the country without without great drivers, without you know, great, great uh partnerships.

SPEAKER_01: 31:47

How big are you guys? How many brokers are uh specialists?

SPEAKER_00: 31:50

Are you so my team, yep. So my team is just over 15. So we don't have a huge, you know, we're not TQL or some of these bigger, bigger outfits, but uh we got about 15, 16 folks, I think, right now. Um and uh, you know, we run um, you know, we run in the hundreds of loads a week um across the country. So we have some key markets that we work in. We do a lot of open deck stuff. We do a lot of work in the uh kind of industrial and construction sector. Um, a lot of specialized things. We, you know, a lot of what we do is more project management than it is just picking something up and dropping it off, right? So we go all the way back to scheduling of materials that are coming out of manufacturing plants and then coordinating, hey, how are those going to go into where they're being installed? Uh and working with, you know, the the customers' project managers just to time, you know, get that timing figured out. So it can get pretty involved. Um, and again, it just goes back to asking questions and learning and you know, like like your podcast, you know, you talk about well, what's what's something somebody can do to become a broker? Well, there's a lot, you know, we live in the uh the day and age of YouTube and podcasts and everything else. There's a lot of information for people for free. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 33:01

So, you know, it's not like back in the day where you had to go sign up for truck driving school and and and learn it from step one, right? Now you can you can learn from other folks' uh input. There's a lot of information being put out there all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 33:14

Just um another side piece uh for someone who's getting started, they look at these load boards and they say, all right, I can afford that per month and all the work is right there, um, versus going out and establishing those networks and those relationships by getting contracts. Um, you know, those I think there's two different ways, or maybe even a third that I don't know about. But uh, what would you say as to using the spot board or the load boards? I'm not saying I think a lot of them are great. Um, but should you start in that area or would you prefer to do a contract, start one, start small, and grow that way?

SPEAKER_00: 33:49

So if I'm a broker, you know, I typically use the load boards for, you know, because like we'll, you know, you see a lot of things about like load lists as well, right? Um, I don't know that I've ever booked a load with a customer from a load board, um, but that's where we get a lot of our initial carrier relationships is talking with folks like that. Hosting a load up and and trying to cover it that way can be really risky, right? So we try to talk to carriers directly. Sometimes we'll get you know contact information, obviously, by looking at load boards and things like that. But you just have to be really cautious, right? The the easier the easier it is from a it's it's a tricky way to say it, right? Like sometimes if something's feels like it's a really easy way to do something, it's a project. Probably somebody that's yeah, there's probably somebody that's like, oh, somebody who wants to do things the easy way is gonna be easier to take advantage of, too.

SPEAKER_01: 34:46

So that sounds like something you would tell your kids.

SPEAKER_00: 34:49

Exactly. You take the easy way out, you're gonna pay eventually. Yeah, you're gonna pay eventually, and sometimes that ends up being worse the long run. So yeah, I mean we utilize yeah, we utilize lowerboards every day, but we use them for you know more informational purposes than anything else, I think is the key. Um, and and then you know, creating those initial steps to a relationship for sure. Um, but yeah, we need to uh just gotta stay vigilant, man. Gotta stay vigilant. As soon as we're asleep at the wheel, that's when things get crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 35:18

So look moving forward, uh, just uh looking at the industry. What do you think AI or uh the technology piece is going to help help out with brokerage or uh maybe even take something away?

SPEAKER_00: 35:32

Well, so it's again, it's both sides of that coin, right? Is that we're utilizing AI, um, even within my organization to, you know, expedite processing of information and data, right? Um, you know, using AI agents to take data that we need to come, you know, come in on one side and come out the other. Rather than having a human being doing that, you can train an AI program to uh to handle a lot of that workload, speeds it up, makes it more efficient. Now that person has more time to do other things like vetting out carriers or or you know searching for solutions that were maybe more on the creative side. Um, you know, where they can that human element is still a very big piece. Um, I know there's a lot of folks out there that think, oh yeah, you know, they're taking over the world and they're gonna put everybody on a job. I think we're I'm a little, I mean, maybe it's because I'm an old man, but I think we're a little ways off from that yet. Uh, you know, when I ask Siri to do something for me, half the time she gets it wrong. So I think we gotta wait before we gotta worry too much. But it's definitely a tool to be utilized in that same breath. Fredulent actors are also using AI to find ways to create false information, to create opportunities for them to uh to get things that they don't deserve. So it's a two-sided coin, right? Like we can use AI to solve problems, but there are folks that are gonna use AI for for nefarious purposes as well.

SPEAKER_01: 36:58

So yeah, it's almost like uh the technology is helping uh people do it the easy way, which could be uh to the detriment of the quality that we need. Um but again, I love technology, I think it's great, I think it's a great tool. I use it here on the show as well. So um we just gotta stick together, like you said, keep those networks, don't isolate yourself. Um, some of those great things that they told us to do in 2020, uh is try to get out of there. But uh yeah, don't be just by yourself a lone wolf. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 37:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 37:32

All right. Well, final thoughts, any takeaways? What's one of the biggest things that shippers you want them to understand about brokers? Maybe there's something that uh some misconceptions out there. Maybe we can help some of that myth busters break those, break people free from them.

SPEAKER_00: 37:47

I think it's, you know, for shippers, it's the same thing when you're looking at working with brokerages. Is I think a lot of focus in the industry when it comes to fraud and all that stuff, it's just kind of not to be the dead horse, but it goes back to those relationships, right? It's is that it's funny, like most of my selling to new prospects or to new relationships or even to existing customers that we have when we're adding new locations across the country is we physically go and meet with them. And and I'm always amazed at how surprised uh folks in a shipping office are to see a broker, right? Carriers obviously have been doing that for decades, but I think building real relationships with people that you can actually talk with and share ideas. Um, if I was a shipping manager, I would want that connection. I would want it with my carriers, I would want it with the brokerages that I use. And uh, you know, it's funny because I think brokers complain a lot about how hard it can be to build those relationships with a shipper. But I personally see it as an advantage because if we can build a real relationship, offer real value, right? It's just not not just a price play. Um, everybody kind of benefits from that, right? There's always gonna be somebody out there who can give you a better deal, you know, five bucks cheaper. But is it is it really gonna be giving you a better opportunity to improve your supply chain? Um now it's gotta be market competitive as well, right? It doesn't mean that you can just, you know, I don't drive a Porsche, right? Um, I need to be able to get from point A to point B, and I don't want something that's gonna break down, but I also don't need it to be a luxury item either, right? So you gotta find that balance. So as a shipper, I think the biggest thing is just just the same brokers and and carriers need great relationships. And shippers, when they're looking for brokerages, they need to find somebody that that is willing to do the do the hard work, which is build the relationship first, find ways to add value, right? If I'm onboarding a brokerage just to save a couple extra bucks, I'm probably just making it worse for the folks that I already have relationships with, as well as that new guy. It's not gonna last very long because eventually the truck driver's gonna go, look, I can't take these loads. I have to be able to pay for fuel, I have to pay for insurance, I have to be able to pay for the upkeep of my truck. I gotta feed my family and put a roof over their heads as well. So it's got to be realistic for everybody involved. So, you know, you mentioned during COVID, and we all saw at the beginning of that where rates were falling through the floor before the big wave started, right? And we were, I had guys on my team that I was like, call that carrier back, you're paying them more than that. You're not getting they'd be like, Oh, I just booked a load for 80 cents a mile. I'm like, you can't fuel a truck for 80 cents a mile.

SPEAKER_01: 40:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 40:27

Call them back because we don't own any trucks. If all these carriers go out of business that are partners of ours in this relationship. Not gonna be able to move anything. We need them. It's gotta be sustainable, right? So just you know, gotta keep those things in mind. So, yeah, same thing for the shippers, right? Is if we get a great price, but we drive all of our partners out of business in the process, it's not gonna last very long.

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

Yeah, I like that you're protecting you're protecting the industry instead of degrading it. I mean, that's huge, man. Um, big ups to you for doing that, and to uh pass that along to to someone that's not as experienced as yourself. Like, uh, what's one lesson you would pass on to your younger self? Uh, if you could, you know, see yourself, you say, Man, that that individual, I could see where they headed. It's just like me. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00: 41:18

Uh be patient and treat everybody the way you want to be treated. So we we work in a stressful business. It's freight never sleeps. It is 247, 365. And I think just being patient with folks, you know, I think I was a bit of a hothead, you know, growing up in uh on the dock overnights, you know, working working freight in the middle of the night on 20 below days, and tensions can run higher, tempers can flare. And I think growing up in that side of the business, um, I developed some bad habits. And as I've gotten older, realized, hey, you know, I wouldn't like it if somebody talked to me this way in a stressful situation. Um, I need to change my behavior. So that's probably the biggest adjustment I've made over the last five plus years is learning to, like I said in the beginning, right? Learning to de-escalate um so that we can, you know, we can get get the key uh communication in place and make sure everybody knows, hey, we're all on the same team here. Trying to learn stuff from it's not that complicated, right? I mean, it's point A to point B as safely and quickly as possible. Um, we're all on the same team at the end of the day, I think, and that's that's a big key.

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

So well, Jason, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. Uh, being so open about this side of the industry, freight fraud and cargo theft aren't talked about enough. I think uh the conversation like this we need to keep having with individuals like yourself to protect ourselves and the industry so that we continue to make better decisions. So uh to everyone out there listening, if you're in the freight industry and you're thinking about getting into it or just making a change or or even just doing what you're doing to do it better, uh, to take it more seriously. Um, keep asking questions, stay alert, and don't assume that everyone's playing fair. So uh if this episode's helped you, um please sure to subscribe, uh leave a review, and share it to someone else that needs to hear it. So thank you so much for coming on the show, Jason.

SPEAKER_00: 43:10

Um what's the best way for people to reach out uh to maybe talk to you or my uh my company is 10 Logistics for based out of Minneapolis, Minnesota. Um, really appreciate this opportunity. Anytime we have a chance to connect with other folks in the industry is is always a good thing. So a lot of stuff out there that needs to be moved. So I'm not much of a protectionist when it comes to information. Yeah, absolutely. Um best way to reach us, uh our our general email inbox is ship it at tenlogistics.com. So that's uh ship it uh at 10logistics.com. General office number is 612 845. Oh wait a minute, what is it? 612 902 8620. So those are the two best ways to reach us. Um and uh we're always there 247 365. Freight never sleeps, my friend.

SPEAKER_01: 44:03

All right, until next time.