Welcome And Life On The Road

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of The Ask Deliver. Glad to have you guys back with us again. I'm your host, Trucking Ray. And we got a returning guest, a great guest to be back on the show to bring value for us. Uh, last time he talked a lot about bringing value for trucking companies out there, how to keep going. And we have Christian Griner from Dat back with us again. And he's got a lot of great insights for us. Let's welcome him back on the show. Christian, how you doing today? Glad to have you back again.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

It's great to be back. What was it? I think it was last summer I was on.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Yeah. Yeah, it goes by fast. I mean, these years a lot has happened.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

A lot has happened in the industry at DET. What about with you? Anything changed this last summer?

SPEAKER_01 0:45

A lot of things changed. I moved the studio to a different location. And man, yeah, I'm I'm doing more driving across state lines. So yeah, really. I'm happy to be working. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

You still get to keep it local, or are you spending some nights away, or how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Every week we go out. So this particular route goes to Salt Lake City, Utah. Then it goes down to Omaha, Nebraska, and from there goes to Houston, Texas, and then to Indiana. There's a place called New Baltimore. And then we go to Chicago, the catch facility, and then we head back to St. Paul. So yeah, a little bit of driving. Every week we do that until they bump us off. Yeah. The union jobs in there and little quirks.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

But yeah, man, I mean, DAT, you guys are doing great things over there. I mean, I really appreciate you coming back on the show. Last time we spent a lot of time talking about fundamentals, why so many carriers out there struggle early on. And you guys also have programs set up in place where it makes it success makes it easy for them to be successful getting started, and why professionalism and communication and all those relationship things that go into play, they really matter into chasing those rates. I mean, that conversation was really about how carriers need to operate business. Today I wanted to build on that because the carriers who who do things the right way, the environment that they're they're in is operating right now. I mean, it's it's pretty rough out there. It feels feels difficult to make it. We'll kind of jump right into it. Well, let's get started. The big picture, the landscape has shifted somewhat over the years. Since the last time we had you on, what's the most meaningful shift you've seen in carriers operating and thinking beyond just rates and volume?

Market Reset And New Enforcement

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah, I mean, I've got a lot has happened in the since last summer. I I think the biggest thing is just to see the seriousness in which this administration, the FMCSA, kind of is taking some of the rules that have been in place for a long time, but enforcement, especially cracking down on kind of the CDL mills, manipulable, you know, ELDs, and you know, we have ELP mandates and things like that. And and so I I think, you know, when I talk to carriers, I see a lot of hope in the industry. You know, and also we can say at a macro level, like you know, Ken Adamo posted this last week. We have now seen forehair carriers return to the pre-COVID trend, right? So for a long time, COVID brought in, and I'm speaking specifically the spot market here, right? Which DAT is operates in. COVID brought in just so many carriers, the demand was so high, then the demand left, but the carrier stayed, right? So now you have a mismatch there where supply far outseeds the demand of freight that needs to move. And what we've seen ever since that time is just this long constant exiting of the industry from certain carriers and people waiting, waiting, you know, when is it gonna get back to normal? And it looks like we are now back at that pre-COVID trend. Now, I I can't say that that's alone is what's responsible for this, you know, spike in rates that we've seen recently, and we have since the beginning of the year. There's definitely going to be a weather-related, you know, part to that. But but I I I definitely hear some hope coming from carriers, and I I like hearing that. I like hearing that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

That's good. Yeah, I mean, definitely a lot that we've been through in the in the past years. I mean, there's a lot of a freight disturbance with fraud, and I mean that seems to be an uptick on that, as far as I'm concerned. I'm I'm kind of new to the industry as well, so I don't know what it's been like 30 years ago, but it seems like a lot of that stuff is really increased for just people trying to see what they can get away with.

Fraud And Double Brokering Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 4:43

That's my impression, too. I mean, I I like you, I haven't been in in that long, maybe six years in this industry, but definitely the fraud is is off the charts, right? From what we've seen and what I've hear has happened in the past.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Because it could only take one instance to really mess up your insurance. I mean, you got the you know, the what is those things, the bonded and insurance things that you gotta go through to protect yourself. Yeah, yeah, they don't like it when that stuff pops up. I'm sure that affects the rates.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, and just I mean, cash flow, right? Like I what I see, especially you know, an owner operator, right? The margins aren't you're you're not making tons of money with these rates, right? And one fraudulent load that you don't get paid on can be enough to put you under. And so it's so important that carriers protect themselves from double brokering and making sure they're working with the right person. Unfortunately, you hear stories like that all day of a carrier who thought they were working with a legitimate broker and it turns out to be someone impersonating a broker and they're not going to get paid for that low load. And that$5,000, you know, is enough to just put them out of business.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, let's slow that down for some of those that aren't in the brokerage industry. I get a lot of truckers that maybe want to expand and maybe retire and do the brokerage. They talk about it. Maybe that's something they can do afterwards, their main thing, make their their second gig, their the main gig. Yeah. But it's risky. What's what's that like? I mean, the trust factor, how do you guys help them be successful? Well, simple thing like double brokerage. How does that what does that look like? Or how does that even get started? Can you give an eye opener on that?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, I mean, I so so I'm the GM in the carrier business here at DAT. And so I I primarily work with carriers. And what I see the most common is that someone will impersonate a broker, right? And they will reach out to that carrier, they'll send an email and they'll say, Hey, you know, I got this load. And the carrier, you know, it could be a broker that they've worked with in the past and that they had a great experience with, and they're like, sure, you know, I'll take it. And what they don't notice is that the email address is just slightly off, right? There's there's something just I've even seen where instead of an I with a dot, it's an I with an italism. I think it's like a Cyrillic word, right? And and it just it's just ever so slightly off. And they don't know that they are not working with that broker, and they are unknowingly participating in double brokering, right? And and so then they go, they deliver the load, and they don't get paid. They don't get paid. And and so I think it's really important, you know, there's a few things carriers can do to protect themselves. One is just look out for those little things, right? If you've been in communication with a broker before and they're reaching out and and something looks off about the email, double check that. But two, this happens all the time, even with like, you know, scammers that call your phone, right? Someone says, Oh yeah, I'm from your bank. There's a problem in your account, you need a transfer over, you know, thousands of dollars. What's the first thing you do? Right. Well, they tell you you should hang up and call your bank, right? And say, Hey, was the I've I did that a few weeks ago. And things like, no, I didn't call you, right? And so that that's the number one thing that I think carry should do, right? If if you're getting it, look up the broker in the FMCSA, call that number. Don't just take it that the person that called you is the broker that you've worked with in the past. And so that I mean, that's just a very simple thing, but it would does protect carriers from unknowingly participating in that sort of fraud and make sure they get paid.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Wow. I keep hearing about the trust and survival part of the industry. Some something I keep hearing as carriers is that they keep feeling forced into decisions that they don't like. Are carriers being pushed to accept levels of risk today that they may never would have tolerated in a healthier market? What would you say on that one?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I'd say there's no doubt about that. There are some great parts about capitalism, right? Brokers are looking for the lowest rate, right? They want to move that freight. I think that what happens though is that when rules aren't enforced, the carrier that's able to offer the lowest rate isn't always abiding by the same rules as everyone else. And that's what I think people have an issue with, right? If you want to gain operational efficiency in your business by getting better at route planning or having better maintenance, you know, on your trucks and and finding better ways, cheaper ways to run your business, that's great, right? That that's capitalism at its finest. If you're going to offer a lower rate because you're manipulating the driver's ELD or you're sending drivers through a CDL mill, that's where people have an issue, right? And and it's and at that point, it's not even a political issue, right? Uh it's it's a safety issue, right? I I have to use the same roads as everyone else. For my family, I want to be safe. And so that's where I see, you know, uh carriers have the biggest issue with, right? Because it's not a level playing field. And so yeah, I think that what you have seen in this market is every carrier has gotten smarter and more efficient at running their business, but some have taken that way too far and started putting safety of others at risk, and that's what I think a lot of us have a big issue with.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, safety on the road is huge. I mean, we hear about these accidents. I think just last week there's a fatality involving a truck driver. I mean, that's yeah. I mean, I'm I'm in the truck sleeping. Yeah, my co-driver's driving. I mean, he's a good guy, and I trust him. Big shout out to Jeff Brewer, man. A lot of a lot of trust goes into the co driver and while you're sleeping on that rig, but yet there's things that are out of your control. I mean, there's a lot of factors on the road, and the more unsafe they make the road, you know, it's a lot of innocent people out there.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. Here's a here. I got a crazy story for you. Okay. So last week I was in Illinois, I was talking to an Illinois state trooper. I said, What's your craziest story? He said, Oh man, you never believe this. He said, I pulled over a driver on a Thursday in Springfield, Illinois. Driver couldn't speak English. So I checked the background. They had entered the country that Tuesday in Washington State, which meant that within three days they had obtained a CDL and made it halfway across the country from Tuesday to Thursday.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Go get that money, huh?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Is that nuts? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Wow. I yeah, I've I've heard I had never been through the process, I don't know what it's like, you know. And I I got nothing to say about immigration because I have no clue being born in America.

Brand For Life Versus Chameleon Carriers

SPEAKER_00 12:29

I mean, that's gotta be rough, but at the same time, the desperation of individuals that the world is being under to come to another country and just jump in a rig and hope that you make it is it's uh that's yeah, and I think you know it is important to separate the political from the safety conversation, right? Because there's there's a political side to this, and and I'm not, you know, the best qualified person to get into that. I can say from a safety perspective, I would much rather drive in a truck of someone that you know is non-domiciled but drove a truck for 10 years in Europe and went through the proper, you know, CDL school, a legitimate CDL school and and did training with their company, even if they have a non-domiciled, you know, CDL, right? Versus even someone that was born here and went through a CDL mill and was driving two days later with no training, right? So like I I get there's a political issue, and I'm not gonna touch that. Man, I got nothing. But the safety issue is the one that that I I take issue with, right? Because again, like I said, you know, you and I share the same roads, like it's it's it's all of us, it affects all of us.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

It does, and you think about the the company that is taking that risk as well. I mean, I'm thinking about a broker just getting their little double double booked and double brokered. I mean, it's the the risk involved with getting an accident like that of fatalities is can be catastrophic to your business, I would think.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's well that brings up another conversation, right? This this idea, because last time I was here, we talked about branding and building up your business and gaining that trust. And and I really respect carriers that do that. Like I love that, right? Because and I and I kind of I call them like brand for life carriers, right? Because they they have something they want to protect, right? So they're gonna make sure that they're doing the safety inspections, that they're keeping their trucks safe, that they put the drivers through some vetting. Uh, you know, what you see on the other side though is that some carriers that uh have multiple, you know, MCs are willing to jump to one to the other. The moment there's a safety issue. And Sean Duffy recently called, you know, chameleon carriers, right? And I think that that's that's that's the biggest difference, right? Because uh, you know, you think about something like McDonald's, right? McDonald's in the US, we have health inspectors, right, that come and make sure that that there's a certain standard being met. But even if they operate in a country where there's no health inspectors, they still have their brand that they're trying to protect. And so they make sure that things are to a certain level, right? If you don't have regulation, but you also don't care about your brand and you're ready to burn it and start a new one the moment your brand gets burned, that opens up a whole another can of worms, right? And that that gets to be a scary place. And so I I I I really, you know, I respect the the emphasis on regulation. And and I really, you know, I feel for the carriers that have tried to be these, you know, brand for life carriers. And I think that in the long run, that's going to work, right? In the long run, carriers will be rewarded for doing things the right way. You know, the freight market, their cycles, it comes and goes, but the ones that'll be here for the long haul are the ones that invest in their brand, invest in their reputation, and really just try to set themselves apart from others.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah, I can only imagine thinking of those backrooms conversations where it's like, how do we make ends meet? Well, we got this coming from this side, and we're we're trying to we're taking hits over here with maintenance, we're trying to get parts in from another country. I mean, we're we're trying to keep it all together so you can make a living as an owner, and you're like, Well, I guess we're going down anyway. You know, I mean, I wonder what when it hits to that point where they just, like you said, we can come back with a different name, and then you start making different choices. You know, like me, I was selling a house and making a move. And as soon as you make that decision to sell your home, they don't want you doing a whole bunch of work on the house, they want you to contract it out because your mindset's different versus knowing that you live there. Let's say you want to change the electrical, you know, you just say, Well, I'm leaving anyway. You know, you start to, I mean, that's what the inspector, the home inspectors, contractors for uh for the jobs when they pull permits and things like that. They they take those things into consideration. So I can see how that could get a little leniency when a company is having some trouble making their numbers work and making ends meet to get in that desperate situation. And I think everybody's been there morally for whatever reason. Like I said, we just have to keep that integrity and keep thinking positive. That's a lot of reason why we have this show when I got you on. You can talk about the rewards of that and the success that many people are having by holding on to being trustworthy, keeping those rates where they they should be and treating people the way they should be treated. It goes a long way. I think that's what a lot of people are looking for these days.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm curious, like in your experience, you know, I know you've been too long, but like, have you seen just the rules of the road change over time? Have you seen it degrading? Like, what have you seen out there?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah, while you're out there driving, people take more risk. I mean, I'm always seeing we're able to look down from our window, and you can see right into the car, people got the phone right in their hand. And this is people just uh they're trying to make ends meet. I get it. They're trying to get from A to B just on a passenger car level, but also professionally. I mean, we see I see a lot of truck drivers with their feet in on the dash.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, it's like is it really that hot in there? You know, or I'm not sure what's going on, but and then the videos you see, it pretty much says it all. I don't know. A lot of the short videos out there is real popular for people to post stuff. I mean, it's just it's it's like the wild wild west. You know, as far as companies, I work for a large company and they try to create that margin for themselves so that they can make a profit for their shareholders. A lot of big companies that have to answer to a board, they act differently. They're not gonna be really concerned about a lot of the small things. Interesting. Um, yeah, the big picture is really what they they're going for, and you never know why they're doing what they're doing because it could be an acquisition thing so that they could set themselves up for the next play, whether they could be purchased or bought, merged. We don't know. That's a lot of things that go on in those boardrooms. It's like in those small mom and pop, when they're together, they're trying to make those numbers work. Same thing the board members are doing when they get together, they're trying to make those numbers work. Yeah, and a lot of companies are trying to invest locally, but they're also, you know, instead of you know, we're we're seeing robots out there, we're seeing automation, we're seeing spending a lot of money on on construction projects to make their margins better by using more of the technology that's available nowadays. And we're seeing that factor slowly work in on the human factor where people say, Who's gonna do all the work? Well, you're seeing it, it's being delivered today. The groundwork is being done so that eventually they can make those moves financially so that they can say, Well, we gotta we got that automated. We don't we don't need to hire.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, I mean it's happened all throughout history, it's not gonna stop now, right? Yeah, yeah. That's a story of our our existence and and how our economy is always operated, right? Looking for those efficiencies, lowering costs.

Tesla Trucks AI And Driver Control

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, it's they're desperate too. You know, yeah, they're desperate for change, you know, being desperate pushes a person to go beyond their it stretches their their mind as to what they are willing to accept. And you can see that firsthand, the risk people are taking just switching from the third lane on the freeway to getting off, and the ex has got to get around that truck. Oh man, would you would you do that if you were weren't in a hurry if you got up a little earlier?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, things are, you know, we're definitely in you know, kind of another industrial revolution, right? And there's gonna be a lot of disruption. It may happen slower than some people are forecasting, right? I uh let's see. Well, so last week I got to see I was at the Midwest truck and trailer show in Peoria, Illinois. Oh yeah, that's a good one. Kind of mini mats. I like the local ones. They had a Tesla, they had the new Tesla semi-truck there. They did. And uh, and I don't think it's gonna take it over anytime soon. But what is your pig?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

What do you think of it?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

It was really cool, you know. I so I I like Tesla, right? I like I like I have an electric car, I like it. Well, one of our cars is electric. I don't think we could have both, yeah, just the one for going around town. And and I was like, Oh, I wonder what the inside looks like, right? So I jumped in the inside of the Tesla Summit. It looks exactly like a Tesla, and there's no buttons, there's just a monitor. It's it's ridiculous. I'm like, we've come so far from uh from what it used to be, right? Like I I was I was talking to someone it it was not long ago, right? Where you had to you know learn to drive the automatic and there was no GPS, right? And I think those two things alone getting automatic trucks and GPS have just I mean transformational in trucking, and and some people say for the worst. Worse, some would say for the better, but they've definitely been transformational. And you know, it's gonna happen again. It's gonna, you know, it's just gonna continue down that down that path.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Was there a button in there for the trailer brake and the tractor break?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I did not even see it. It looked just I don't know if this was a prototype or not, but it looked just like a Tesla. Like there were hardly any buttons. I don't know what they I think everything was like done from they had two monitors versus one, right? So it was kind of interesting because uh the driver's seat, there's only one seat, and the driver's seat was centered in the cab, it was in the direct center. So the steering wheel was in the very center, and then you had two monitors to the right and the left. And I was like, that that's that's nuts, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, I mean, you think about fraud right now on the hands-on level. You imagine fraud on the digital level, it doesn't. I don't know what what are we setting ourselves up for?

SPEAKER_00 23:45

I that's that's a thought right there, yeah. Yeah, you know, that's that's why that's one thing. Like when we talk about like autonomous trucks and stuff like that, people are really worried, right? And I'm like, I yeah, but like you still want a person there in the gap, even if it's driving itself for safety purposes, like yeah, you seem like you still want something because then someone just take your trailer, right? Or or and who's doing the inspections and the safety inspections. So I think you know, innovation's coming, it'll it'll take a while, but but in the short term, I'm I wouldn't be too worried.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah, I say convince me, you know, show me more, educate us, don't just sneak it in, help us accept it. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think uh people will be more apt to understand why why are we pushing for this versus we're just gonna we're gonna push these through. I don't know when that worked, how's that? I mean, especially today. I mean, people are very uh able to make their own decisions based off of videos and draw their own conclusions without knowing all the facts why that happened or why people program it to do that. So make help people accept it if it's that important. Convince me that it's safer, not just saying it. Yeah, saying it's one thing. I think a lot of people, especially in the truck industry, we're used to getting lied to. I'm sorry. You know, I mean people make up something we're just talking about fraud, you know, when you show up and say, I think people are showing up at the docks and saying, Hey, you got anything for me? And they just throw something on the truck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please verify, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

You know, but it what you're talking about, it points to a bigger issue, right? Like, because everyone wants to automate the job of a truck driver, but it's so much more than driving a truck. Like what you just the example you just gave, like you can't, I you know, and it I think that it's interesting because obviously there's a lot of tech companies, and DAT is one of them, right? We want to push the boundaries and make things more efficient through technology. I still think though, that like the role of AI, there's there's so much potential for it to benefit drivers. And but I think that like too many companies uh market it as like a replacement, right? Like let this AI take over this aspect of the job for you. And I think drivers are skeptical of that, right? They still want control. And I think that's the future, like that's where I see technology heading and where where you you utilize AI as a tool to make parts of your day or parts of your job faster, but you're still skeptical to let it take over everything. And I think we're a long way from it letting it take over everything, like dispatching, right? Like an AI dispatcher, that's that's gonna be that's hard. That's really hard. There's so much that goes into that. I think that you know, someone's I forgot who was giving example, but it was a technologist, and and someone was complaining to them, like, well, when am I gonna have a robot that does all my chores for me? And he was like, What do you mean? You already have that. Like you have a dishwasher that washes your dishes, you have a laundry machine that, you know, does your laundry, you have a vacuum cleaner that can vacuum the floor for you, right? But are you looking for one like humanoid robot to do all that? Like we already have robots in our lives that make them so simpler. And that's the model I think most drivers are most comfortable with, right? We want AI to help us with tasks, but we're not ready to let it completely take over our lives because there's a lack of trust there right now. And I don't know if that lack of trust is ever going away.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

And you see it. You know, when you're out on the road and you pass by and you see, you know, putting sheets over someone's body, you see the the carnage, you see it firsthand, the responsibility when you're pulled over into an inspection and you're held responsible for your load. I mean, you can feel it. Um the responsibility. You're not behind a computer, you're right there with it. When when the officer asks you, why is this like this? And you have to answer for it, and but it's your company that doesn't want to do that or this, and now you're you've been compromised and you see it, you gotta you got a reckoning moment right there. You gotta look at what's going on and say, Hey, man, yeah, that wasn't right. That's not safe. Yeah, that's a great point. I'm very observant. I was I was always very observant as a kid. So you watch things just like that GPS you brought up. It took me. I got off on the exit, didn't need to get off on it, but the GPS wasn't up to date that the road would continue. It was so it rerouted me to the town. So the next week I go through that area and I'm behind another truck. He goes off on the exit. Yeah, so you know, so you see other people going through it, you know, the GPS is nice, but you gotta you're like, why are you arguing with the GPS? Because you know inside there's a better way, and that's the struggle I think we live with is we're gonna be arguing with the computer and technology, trying to figure out is is it right, is it up to date, you know, and is who's gonna suffer the consequences of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

100%.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Yeah, it's a small thing. We're not willing to let go. It's you know, I don't know. They said that the thing can be a babysitter, some of those robots. I don't know about that. You know, would you trust your kids with it? You know, so I think it's a lot of selling factors into it and a lot of elements to help push revenue. So they want people to invest in it. So you're gonna sell it like it's gonna make your life easier, you know. That's the oh for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

For sure. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of man. If you want some investment money, just say you're coming out with something AI, right? Come pouring in.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

It's hot and sexy. Yeah, let's do it. Wow. But yeah, then the consequences are you know, we're gonna we're gonna feel it, we're gonna see it. So hopefully they're thinking about those things and they're and they're holding on to those values, and the regulators are looking at it, and it's it's being questioned behind the scenes that we don't know about, and they're actually taking it very serious. So we we really appreciate it if they're doing that. So, but yeah, we always gonna be skeptical as a human factor, right? We're gonna it's so fun to be a skeptic nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I mean truck drivers more so than others than the general population.

Trust But Verify In The Spot Market

SPEAKER_01 30:29

We got so much time on our hands, you know. When you're out there driving, looking out the window. I mean, you got a lot of time. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I get to educate myself on a lot of things just by out there audible, audible in my ear. Yeah, you know, you got so then you visualize it in your mind as to what they're saying. So it helps with that putting those pieces together, just like old radio days. You know, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

So well, I and you know that that one of the best attributes you can have is a little skepticism, right? I mean, going back to that fraud conversation we were just having, it's it's funny to me because when a scammer calls you, I mean, these are known tactics, right? When a scammer calls you, they're often trying to create a sense of, and I'm not talking about trucking here, I'm just talking about like anyone, right? Scammer calls you, they're trying to create a sense of fear, a sense of urgency, a sense of like, hey, this needs to happen right now. Your bank account has been hacked, right? They're trying to put you in a state of stress and needing to act urgently with quickly and not think about what you're doing. And what's funny is like like that stress and that urgency, scammers don't need to create that in trucking because it already exists. Like a lot of truck drivers, there's always a sense of urgency and a sense of you know, fear. And in and so it's the you know, one of the earlier questions you asked, like, why this industry, right? Why are is it so susceptible to scammers and fraud? And I think a lot of it is because it's already has all the elements that allows fraud to thrive, which is you know, the the lack of trust, the sense of urgency, the things need to happen quick, the fear, things like that. There are already elements that exist in the life of a truck driver daily. And so they're very susceptible to that. And and I think that's that's one of the reasons why it's been so hard for this industry.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Man, that's a good point. Really good eye opener to like I said, that feeling you get inside. I have to tell myself to slow down quite a bit. Yeah, you want to go go go. But what that saying my dad used to tell me, haste makes waste, and I go, Wow, there it is. If I just took five more minutes, you know, you could see a lot of time, and you know, he's got a lot of one-liners like that. So my dad. So yeah, I mean, what are some of the misconceptions out there? I mean, what do you think uh cares think is protecting them, but actually isn't? Are there any tools or habits, assumptions that give false sense of security, like you said, that feeling? What would you say on that for misconceptions?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

That's a great question. I mean, I think that you know that there's an old saying, you know, trust but verify, right? This industry doesn't work without some element of trust. And and again, I'm speaking specifically of the stock or the spot market here, right? Where DAT operates. But but there is an element where look, you're gonna have to work with a broker you don't know. And a broker's gonna have to work with a carrier that they don't know. And so there's always gonna have to be some element of trust. And really the whole industry only works when there's some baseline trust. The the question for me has always been like, how do you how do you establish that trust quickly? Right. And how do you what kind of tools do you use? I I think I think there's a lot you can do, like I said, right? Verifying information, making sure that information's accurate. It's hard though. It's hard though, because I also think that there's not a great like review system in trucking, right? There's not I can go to a restaurant I've never been to before because I can say, oh wow, look, they have like 300, you know, reviews and 4.7 right average star rating. Like that's awesome, right? I I know that helps that me immediately establish trust with that restaurant. So much so that if I have a bad experience at that restaurant, I'm actually likely to be like, you know, I think this was a one-off. I'm willing to try it again, even what I see is that doesn't exist a lot in trucking, right? There are a lot of carriers who who, you know, are very hesitant to work with brokers that they don't know because things go wrong in trucking, right? Trucks break down. And if you're working with a broker that you've ran, you know, dozens or hundreds of loads with when your truck breaks down, it's like, oh man, no problem. Sorry to hear that, right? Like, but if you're working with a broker who it's the first load you've ever hauled for them, you know, all of a sudden they think you're a fraud, you know, fraudulent carrier and you're scamming them. And and so it I I I would love to see more trust in the industry, but it it just needs to, it needs to to have like we need better like reviews, better, quicker ways to establish trust. That's why I think I I I've talked so much in the past about like your your brand as a as a truck driver and what you stand for in your reputation. Because I think that that's the antithesis to to lack of trust is knowing you know what you stand for when they see the logo on the side of your truck, they know, oh, that that brand stands for that. And I think some are doing this really well, and I think some aren't. So it's it's one of those, it's it's a hard thing in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah. I mean, you think about the one that is upholding it, trying to do their best, and then and they see the competitor out there outrunning them. So they're like, why do we need to push so hard?

SPEAKER_00 36:17

You know, yeah, yeah. No, that's a great point. And that's where I I think that drivers lose faith in the system when they see that all that they've invested in into their brand and their reputation is not being considered when it comes time for something like rate negotiation, right? Like, and and and some brokers are great at that. Like they're they're gonna be like, hey, look, I want to make sure that this load gets there safely on time. I'm willing to pay a little more for someone I've worked with in the past, but some brokers don't, right? And and so I think that that that's been one of the the problems. And I I don't know has an easy solution, but but I love I love it when companies, you know, are one brand for life and they invest in that their own reputation, even owner operators, right? Owner operators, that's not excluded, you know, you invest in your reputation, you show up. And uh, and I think in the long run, that is the game to play, right? That that that's still gonna be the winning strategy because cycles in the market come and go, but your reputation is what and it's just a morally good thing to do too, right? Like it's just it's good to run safe, be on time, you know, try to do your best, right? And and and be honest with people.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Be honest. I mean, it doesn't seem that way, but it's it's the one thing we learned when we were really young, and it still resonates today, you know. If that even though it sucks, tell the truth. Yeah, it's much easier to do it that way and establish the honesty and it and and that trust versus breaking it all down and not knowing where to start. You gotta start all over, build that trust back up. It's frustrating. I think it's easy up front, but it's actually the hard way. Totally. I mean, like these people out there getting in accidents and stuff. That's that's that's not the life you want to live. Yeah, it's much easier and much better to live with yourself when you you got that great driving record. I mean, it's it's a good feeling. It helps you out a lot.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

And I hope, and I I also hope the government comes up with better ways to because you know, if if you have a trucking business, you know, you have a hundred trucks, statistically, at some point one of them's gonna get an accident, right? And if that if that punishes you too much, right, and and then you have another fleet with a hundred trucks that gets in an accident, so then just change the name of the fleet, right? So theirs, you know, they could have tons of accidents on their record, and yet it looks perfectly clean because they keep reinventing themselves. Whereas that company that's trying to do the right thing, it can look like they have you know more accidents, right? Or more more, you know, issues, and and it's just not true.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

So you're saying too much regulation could be bad. No, I regulations, the regulations.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

I think it needs to be smart regulation, if that makes sense. Like, like it just it just the current system has a lot of flaws that I hope that people that know about the industry and are informed about the industry will start to start to address.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah, you're right. I mean, I mean that's that that'll be that'll get us to another level. I really feel that that's a good good thing to improve on, put the money in being smarter. Um because a lot of times rep the government has a reputation of getting in there and not such great things happen. I mean, they're there, but yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

I know I know a lot of the uh sensors on our truck. There's nobody that goes around and maintains that. I think the shop says, Oh, that's uh that's that company. You know, put one name out there like Spinox. Uh then there's the camera or the radar camera on the truck.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah, you gotta get that adjusted. You gotta go through your settings on your truck to make sure that that's right because it could be looking a little too far to the left based off of wind or something that could have messed that camera up.

DAT Tools Built For Speed And Trust

SPEAKER_00 40:22

So many electronics, so many electronics in trucks now, it's ridiculous. Like it's I I mean, I guess it's it's there for safety, but man, like it just gets so expensive.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, it's the same thing for me. I got all these electronics, but then I got all these batteries. I gotta make this on charge, I got that on charge. You know, it's like wow, hey, yeah, is it really making me better? I don't know, it's debatable. We'll see one day. Maybe there'll be a saturation level. Um, DAT is doing such a great job, you're a great guy working there, they're hiring good people. When you go through the onboarding process, you guys reach out when that that FMCSA number gets approved. The process is really nice. You guys looking out for people making sure that they get the right load boards that work with DAT. I mean, you guys got a lot of tools and data to help people be successful, even though there's still a lot of troubles in the industry. Really proud of what you guys are doing over there.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah, well, I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, we it's you know, DAT has been around for I think what 48 years now. And so sometimes that can be a trap for companies, right? You get a little too complacent. But I I really love our leadership team. Um, I think they do a great job of just pushing change within the organization and and leading with innovation. Since the last time we spoke, right? I think actually think the convoy acquisition happened after that, which is another piece of great technology that's coming into our portfolio that we'll be able to leverage to make life easier. Uh you know, I should say everything I've I've kind of spoken to up to this point has been like Christian Greiner's opinion of things, not necessarily DAT. But but when we talk about DAT, there's there's just so much great things going on. And I think that ultimately for us, you know, what we see is that everything comes down to speed and trust. We we want to help drivers, you know, we want to improve that trust. And we want to be allowed drivers to execute quickly and brokers for that matter, right? We are a two-sided network. I think mostly about carriers because I'm on the carrier side, but but it's all about speed and trust. And so all of our investment into technology goes into goes into that. How do we make things quicker? And how do we make them, you know, provide you the information to make the data more accurate, more trustworthy?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

That's awesome. I mean, you talk about brand. So DAT, your booths at the shows. I mean, you guys do a great job. You're out there, it's not just one person there to help and answer questions. Keep up that great work, man. We need more of that in the industry. I know there's a lot of decisions that aren't popular. Every platform makes decisions and it can be frustrating. Part of the market, what's a decision that DAT has made around trust, verification, and access that you knew wouldn't be popular, but but felt it was still the right move.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah, put me on the spot here. Let's see. So, you know, so we we do verify everyone that comes onto the load board. Uh, again, because of that that trust aspect, we want to make sure that you know people are operating, that they're trustworthy. Right now it's a very manual process, and so sometimes that takes longer than we would like. And so, you know, you're like, hey, I want to get on, you know, DAT's load board, and sometimes that doesn't always happen as quickly. We'd I would love it if we could get faster at that, and and within you know, 30 minutes we could grant access, but that's not always the case. Sometimes it is so that you know that's one that I I hear feedback, you know, why can't it be quicker, easier to sign up for DAT? There's other features that again, you know, we're a two-sided network, right? So we have we have broker customers, we have carrier customers, and we're trying to serve both. You know, one feature that I am really excited about that we actually launched, I think last quarter was carrier management suite. And so brokers have the ability to uh uh specify uh some filters uh in choosing which carriers see their loads on the load board. Now you can take that one or two ways, right? I heard mixed feedback. Some carriers were very upset saying, like, no, like if I'm paying for DAT, I want to see. See every single load. And the brothers are saying, well, no, like if I if I want to say, hey, I require everyone that has a load for me to have six have their authority for six months, I I don't necessarily need carriers that don't have that authority to be able to see the load in in DAT. And so that was a problem we work through a lot. And I think we have a great compromise where right now carriers can see the loads, but they can also see that it's flagged that, hey, they don't meet the requirements. And I think some, you know, I've I've carriers have a wide range of opinions, and I've heard some that, you know, don't like that. But I've also heard from a lot of carriers that actually really appreciate that, right? Because nothing's worse than being a new carrier and seeing, you know, a bunch of loads that look great and calling and calling and being told time and time again, nope, sorry, we won't work with you. Nope, sorry, we won't work with you. Nope, sorry. And you don't know why. And that's demoralizing, right? And and again, everything's about speed and trust. And that's not fast, right? Calling 20 lows that you don't qualify for is not fast. And so now within DET, being able to quickly see, okay, here are the loads that I can I have a shot at. Like, I I that actually goes to increasing speed. And so overall, I think it's been a great change, and and it's been met with a lot of pieces of positive feedback. But you can imagine some people, you know, don't necessarily like that.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Not too popular. Yeah, I mean, that's huge, great value to add, you know. Like I said, you spend all that time trying to trying to get it right, and you're losing money at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

So yeah, yeah, and loads, loads are going so fast, like they're going so fast, and you like you you have to know which one you got a shot at. Like, and some carriers will say, Hey, look, I know if I can just get the broker on the phone, I can negotiate with them, maybe explain my situation. But at the end of the day, like it's it's all about speed, and and the carriers are the fastest, are the ones you know, winning those loads.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Nice, nice. So, man, that's uh helps a lot of people survive out there. I mean, when you're looking at these carriers who are navigating the market well, certain behaviors stand out. What are they doing differently when it comes to trust and risk that you may want to speak on? What are they willing to walk away from that that maybe the carriers are struggling with?

SPEAKER_00 47:11

The best carriers are just they're they're smart business people. They are and and and they can spot it. I mean, they can spot it, right? Like I get I get messages all the time because I I listen to, I'll say this, I miss I listen to every piece of customer feedback we get. And a lot of carriers, you know, have my phone number and they'll text me things on the load board, they'll be like, Look at this fraudulent load, right? I'm like, well, how do you know that's fraudulent? And they're like, look at this. And I'll be like, oh, okay, you're right. Like that, that so I carry they're smart. These are smart guys. Our customers are some of the smartest people, and they can they can normally suss it out and and they can they can spot what's abnormal, what doesn't make sense. And so I think, but that comes with experience too, right? It comes with experience, and and that's why I think it's you know, I I I really want the guys to succeed that have been in this industry for a long time. The the men and women who have been putting their heart and soul into this industry, that's why it's so important they succeed because they are the ones that have all the knowledge and the and make this economy run smoothly. And so, you know, our job is to to help them. Our job is to help them, to give them the tools, to give them the knowledge, the training and the resources they need to run profitably and and make money. And that's you know kind of what we hold ourselves to. And so a lot of that comes from hearing that product feedback and having those conversations. I spend half my time on the road visiting customers. Like I said, you know, if you're in the DET app and there's a little spot to make a comment, I read every single one of those. And I'm not the only one. A lot of people at DET do that. And so it get it gets back to us and we take that seriously. And and and honestly, most of the things we do are based off of customer feedback.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

That's amazing. That's huge. You know, people's, you know, you you think, man, if I say something, it's just gonna go on go somewhere and it's not gonna be heard. Yeah, why bring it up? I know I call my bank, I gotta, I gotta call them again. And you go through the automated system, and it's just dragging on, asking the silliest questions. And then when you get the person on the phone, they ask the same questions again. Uh say, well, that automated system that was pretty rough. Sorry, sorry, sorry to hear that, and then just move on.

unknown 49:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Can you try to fix it?

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I mean, I wish I could, you know, someone might say, Hey, I don't like this about DAT, and then we change it, and the other someone else says, Oh, why'd you change that? I liked it, right? So you got to balance some of it, but but I think there's there's common threads where you're like, Oh yeah, we that can definitely be improved. Give an example. So, you know, we one of our product managers spends time in the trucks of of drivers and and rides with them, you know, and and I try to do the same. And so, and through studies, we've seen that, you know, tree typically drivers are trying to find their next load that operate in the spot market, right? They're trying to find their next load when they're about you know 200 miles out right from from drop-off. And so that can be hard, right? If you don't have someone dispatching for you, if you're doing your own self-dispatching, that can be hard. And so we recently launched uh a widget on the iPhone that you can add to your your home screen and it will just and it has your parameters and it will show three loads that you can call directly from that home screen. And that came from direct, you know, customer feedback. I don't even think we've announced that yet. But if you have an iPhone and you have the dat one app, you can actually go right now and add it. I think it's still in beta, but it's open to anyone to add to their home screen. And but that comes from direct customer feedback, right? And and look, like I've worked in industries where people are hesitant to give feedback. This is not one of those industries. Our drivers will tell us what I mean, they are not shy about their feedback, they'll tell us exactly where we failed and how we need to improve. And I love that about our customers. And so it because it creates this this accountability right on our side, and how do we deliver and how do we take that feedback and turn it into ways that can improve their lives?

Convoy Factoring And Closing Advice

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Hey man, that's what's up, man. I like that, you know. Instead of them having to dig for it, you put it right out there. You're gonna go find it anyway. So might as well put it on the home screen on your phone, save your time, less fumbling around with it. That's huge. Great job. Yeah, I hope that continues to be successful and that everyone finds that as a something of value. So I think nice. Yeah, I mean, is there any other collaborations or anything that you haven't seen take place? I know we like the government to try to get better, I know that may take time. What else? What other areas do you think you're just like, man, if I could put a little message out there, get the get people talking? So we wish we could see some more of that. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, I mean, I I would say that I'd highlight a few a few of the recent moves we've made lately as far as the the acquisitions. Convoy, I think it's just a it's a great technology, and and there's a lot of cool things for owner operators if you download the app. Now it is a whole different ballgame, right? There's there's fraud is almost non-existent on Convoy because it is this closed loop system that and there's extreme verification involved. And so it's it's a really it's a really cool app. And you can do instant booking, you can bid on loads. I think it's a it's great technology that we're going to continue to invest in and improve. We also acquired a factoring company a few months ago, which I think is by far the best in the industry because they will price match any existing contract. They will, and there's no contracts, right? Like a lot of factoring companies, you have to sign like a year-long agreement, outgo, no contracts, month to month, you can quit anytime, but they'll guarantee to you know to match your current rate, and you can get down to one percent factoring. So there's a lot of these things that moves we're trying to make as we talk to people in the industry and drivers and say, okay, what are what are your problems? And then we come back to the board and we're like, okay, how do we think we can solve this? And and if we don't have the tech, that's when you know we look at these strategic acquisitions of of technology we can purchase and bring into the fold. And so overall, it's this, it's what we're trying to create is this end-to-end system just to make being an owner operator as simple as possible because that's you know ultimately our goal, right? That's how our business model succeeds when there's a strong, healthy spot market. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

I like that. I think that's gonna definitely resonate with the industry. Keep pushing with that. I mean, those acquisitions seem like you know, companies are trying to just grow, but no, they're trying to make things easier for the user. So that factoring, I think, is gonna be huge. How should I look for that? Is it just a drop-down or a menu option, or do you gotta call and talk to you guys?

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Yeah, no, there's uh so if you go to dat.com, there's gonna be a place where you can see outgo factoring and learn more about that. And if it's the right choice for you, I mean, give them a call because, like I said, they'll match the price, like so. Uh you got nothing to lose.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah, how cool is that? I mean, I appreciate you coming on the show. I mean, you guys are taking things to the next level. What advice would you give people out there to wrap things up as to one way to be? I know it's you got to be uncomfortable, you got to make the changes so that you can grow for carriers out there. What would you say to them to get to the next level?

SPEAKER_00 55:06

You know, kind of the message that we've spoken about earlier, right? Freight cycles come and go. And and ultimately this one will come and it will go, and then another one will come and go, and another one and come and go. And it's just this game of supply and demand. And so keeping sound business, you know, principles, remembering what you stand for, remembering what your reputation is, holding to that. I think that's how how you succeed in the long run. And and some of the best drivers I know are just extremely they're they're they're solid people, right? They're they're unmovable and and they know what they stand for, and they're not going to compromise those. And I love, I love hearing that and I love talking to people like that. And I think that there's just so much great things happening in this industry. We got a lot of problems as an industry, but there's some really smart people trying to solve these problems with with technology and advocating for drivers. And I think I I think I I I see hope. I see hope for this industry. I'm really excited for the future. Nice, and I love being part of it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

That's awesome. Take care of the the the driver, the company, the the broker. Uh, make sure that there's a rock solid industry for people to come back to. Like you said, all that experience would be a shame if it were to leave or just get diluted. So, man, I'd say bring back the uniform, make it a little more stronger. I see a lot of sweatpants out there and a lot of uniforms just kind of dying off. We could bring that back, even if it's just on the mom and pop level. Represent yourself while you're out there, you know. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

I was a who was I I was at a conference, uh broker carrier summit, I think last year in Indianapolis, and Trey Giggs was talking about that. And he's like, Yeah, like wear a polo of your company name, be proud of it. Give give shirts to your drivers, let them know what you stand for, what your name is. Take pride in it.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Yeah, I don't know why not. You know, it's a it's free advertisement as far as them walking around with it, but yeah, I don't see why not. I mean, we watch Formula One and all that stuff. I mean, there's brands, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Yeah, so am I gonna see you at Matt's this year?

SPEAKER_01 57:20

I will. I'll be there. Yeah, we'll be there too. Yeah, it's gonna be great. I know this show is probably gonna come out in April, but I'm so glad to have you. Oh, after me.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Okay, there we go.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Yeah, I wish we could um get back together and talk about it some more.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

I mean, even just your it was great seeing you at Matt's. Uh, we had a really great conversation, really enjoyed it at Matt's.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

So I love it. Yeah, so man, you you're awesome, man. You're doing great things out there. I I can't thank you enough for taking the time to talk to the listeners out there and tell them, hey, it's worth being, you know, more than just a trucking company. You can build that trust with people and build those relationships. It just keeps resonating with the industry and the experience that they have out there. It's huge for people to get what they need. So, you know, that's another episode of That's Delivered with uh Christian Griner and DAT, the resources that you guys are providing for people are huge. Please keep it up. I mean, you guys are doing great things. I'm proud of you guys. I'm sure a lot of other cup customers are happy as well. For those that aren't satisfied, hey, you hear it, you heard it here. Christian reads those comments.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

So you know, LinkedIn and and send me your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Awesome, man. And uh, so if you if anyone's out there listening, if you have anything you'd like to share, please send it to us. We'd be happy to get those topics talked about on the show. Um if you want to continue to do what you do, uh reach out to DAT. What's the best way to reach them?

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Is well we have customer support that will answer at all times and get answers to your questions. And if you have feedback from me personally, like I said, just connect with me on LinkedIn and shoot me a message.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Look forward to it, man. That's awesome to see those connections continue to grow. I mean, they see LinkedIn as a I think is a great platform for professionals. I love the fact that you can talk about work and the things that are on your mind there, and it's it doesn't seem like anyone is dropping a whole lot of uh misconceptions and and things like that just to confuse people, but yet building those connections so that they can build trust. So keep using LinkedIn for good and to be a force to be reckoned with there. So that's a great place to connect. Yeah. So stay tuned out there, stay safe, and we'll catch you next episode on Last Delivered.