Welcome And Why MATS Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to That's Delivering. I'm your host, Truck and Ray, and today we have a special episode, one that I'm sure you're going to enjoy because it's all about Matt's and Louisville and our special guests of what they were able to what they're able to glean from the show and also a little bit about what they've been through over the years. Um, you know, Matt's is one of their biggest uh events that we have all year. It's always about getting a good pulse check, what people are talking about, what's shifting and what things are are changing or what direction they're going in. So today I wanted to circle back to that, not just about what happened, but what actually stuck after everyone went home and went back to work. And to do that, we have Angela Fronning joining us. Angela brings perspective that sits right in the middle of the industry, working closely with carriers, drivers, and the brokerage side. She's someone who's not afraid to speak honestly and about what's working and what's not. So, Angela, we appreciate you coming on. Angela, I'm very happy to have you here. How you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I'm great. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Doing well, yeah, not too bad at all. Um, can't complain, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Another day living the dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Yeah. So yeah, you know about that firsthand. You know, I know uh we wish we had you uh visually here, you know, but uh we got you on the audio, um, unfortunately with the internet um situation.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah, technical issues. Yeah, I lost uh power and internet here about 20 minutes ago. So we'll get it up eventually.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yes, one day I can my studio and uh you can come do it in person, so that'd be a lot better. So right now we have the um you know do things over streaming.

Angela’s Path Into Trucking

SPEAKER_00 1:40

So thank goodness for streaming. So I'm glad.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, no, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So let's uh uh start with uh how you got started. Um, you know, a lot of people like to know the background of what things happen. Um what's one thing that uh um got you into trucking?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I um actually got into trucking back in the late 90s. I answered a job, uh job ad in the newspaper. So that tells everybody how old I am because we weren't doing, I don't even think monster was around yet. And even if it was, like most people were not going there to get their candidates. So I just kind of added, uh, you know, answered an ad in the paper, and I had to go in. It was really interesting and give take this like it's kind of like a standardized test. And because I was 18 years old at the time, I was really good at taking standardized tests. So I went in there and knocked that out, and they were like, Oh, we never even had anyone finish this before. So I was like, Oh, well, uh, I guess that's good news. So I went in and interviewed, and um, here I am almost 30 years later. You know, of course I've changed companies a couple times, but I started out doing um courier work. Um, and my very first job was I just audited um our driver manifest every day because everything we did was based on accessorial. So if there was a lift gate or you had to provide a skid, or I mean, I can't even think of them all. That's way too long ago. And then I got into um dispatch, and that's um what I did. I did dispatch and low planning for another like seven or eight years, and then I went into sales for probably about probably about another eight years after that, and then about 12 years ago, I started my freight brokerage um agency. So I don't run my own agency or I don't have my own MC number, but I am an agent for Stutzman logistics, and um yeah, so I've just kind of been all I've done it all. Like when I did the courier stuff, like we had to go out and do uh pickups and deliveries. So um that was just part of our job. So I have seen the driver's side of it, you know. I've loaded trucks a little bit, you know, I've pretty much done everything other than like I've never gone over the road in a truck. I've always, you know, gone home at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

So nice. That's amazing. I mean, what kept you in it? Because the industry isn't for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Um, I love the people in this, and there's a lot of um not so great people, but once you meet your little clique, and then you find out that that clique is associated with this click, I mean, you just get kind of entrenched in this network that is just unbelievable. It's I mean, like they say, it's a small world, right? And in trucking, it's just addictively small. Um, and then I got actually really burnt out about two years ago. Um, and I was thinking, you know, I kind of wanted to do something else because there was a lot of this fraud and other issues happening, and I just was like, this isn't fun anymore. Um, and what really changed that for me was getting reconnected again in a network of people. So it's always been the people that had kept me in this. I love the blue collar type of mentality, everyday people, and just helping people fix problems that they have. Like I'm all about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

That's awesome. I love that factor as well. I mean, I know it takes all of us to keep the wheels turning. Um, but yeah, I love uh speaking up for the blue collar. Um yeah, I think there's something to be said about that, uh keeping that muscle going, you know, atrophy is not good. So you want to keep stimulating those individuals that are are using those physical attributes of themselves to keep the industry

The Biggest Broker Misconception

SPEAKER_00 5:25

going. So appreciate that, man. That's yeah, no problem. Yeah. So what do you think about people um misunderstood mostly about broker role today?

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Um, I think the most misunderstood is the amount of control that we actually have regarding pricing. That is the number one thing. We don't control that. The market dictates that, and these customers are all savvy enough that they can get on all these kinds of tools online. There's even a thing called, I think it's like freight GPT. It's like chat GPT, and you can just go on there and ask it rates. So customers are very savvy, and even if those rates don't reflect the current market, they're still making their budget and their analysis on what they plan to spend for the year based on that information. So unless you have unless your broker has a really, really good relationship with their customer, they may not really be in control over that price. So getting emotional about things is just kind of a waste of time. All you really just need to be is like, I'm I don't want to do that. I mean, to me, that's the same as getting mad that if I'm trying to sell my car and somebody wants to buy it for $1,000 because it's all they have, but it's worth $10,000. I can't be mad about that. I just have to go find a new buyer.

unknown 6:42

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Nice. I like that straight to the point there. So you built a reputation for being very pro driver and pro carrier. Um, how did you get that going? How did that start for you?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Uh well, I started out as a carrier, so I only became a broker like 12 years ago, and I didn't even really think that I was planning to do this. Um, I just kind of needed, it was like I needed a job at the time. And um, that's just kind of how it worked out. But um I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry, what did you just ask me? I just started off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

No, you're good. I was thinking the the reputation that you've been able to.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Oh, the reputation, yeah. So I really never planned on doing this, and it it just sort of like was something that happened. So I just I guess I never stopped thinking about what it was like to be a carrier. And honestly, it is a little nicer to be a broker versus a dispatcher because once I send your truck to where it goes, I'm done thinking about that truck. Like I I hope that driver, you know, does well in his life and everything, but I don't really have to consider that. So it is, I think that's what leads a lot of people to just be like, they don't have to care. But you know, it's not, we just can't, you know. I so I think I just started thinking of this. You can't think of it transactionally because even though you may not see that driver again, I don't know, you ever think of like, okay, you get a bad uh delivery for UPS. And so now, like every driver now for UPS, like you just hate UPS or like FedEx or whoever delivers to your house. We can't make it transactional like that. You know what I mean? Like we all have to kind of feed into the system. And if you want things to continue to be good or you want them to get better, you have to put that out there because you can't take out the last shipment, your issues with your last shipment on your current driver. So it's just really for me, it's more just about I have to continually wipe the slate clean in my head, and I have to work sometimes on not taking things personally. And as long as I don't do that, then it's like I just try to treat people how I want to be treated. And I guess that goes a long way into establishing that reputation, which is really nice. But really, it's just me just trying to like make it not so transactional in my own mind so that I continue to think about each next step along in the process.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

I like that. I think that's something to be said about that. I mean, your experience, uh, your reputation goes into play there for you know people to be trustworthy. And you know, how do you, I guess, differentiate,

How To Spot Fraud Faster

SPEAKER_00 9:25

separate the two? Someone you trust in a space versus someone you want to avoid.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Well, the first thing you have to do is you have to talk to people. Um, that's something that I noticed that people really stop doing. And I think that's what led to a lot of fraud. We just started doing everything over the internet. You do things on email, but you don't pick up the phone and hear how somebody talks. I can pick up pretty quickly whether or not somebody's full of it. You know, it's not that difficult. You know, if you can't if you ask really straightforward questions, and that's the thing, just start thinking of like really detailed questions you could ask somebody, and if they don't have a quick answer for you, they probably I mean they're lying somewhere. And I people don't like to be called a liar, like people are really sensitive about that, but then there's this whole other people are like, well, you'll just fake it till you make it, you'll figure it out as you go. And it's like, no, that is a lie. Like, if you told somebody you know how to do something and you're figuring it out as you go, that's not the same thing. So yeah, you just have to really talk to people and ask tough questions. And sometimes those questions that some people are shy, they don't want to hurt someone's feelings or get yelled at, and you just kind of like they say, trucking is not for the weak, and neither is freight brokers. So you just got to be willing to ask those questions.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Nice. That is mad. So sitting in your position, um, I mean, that you have seen quite a bit, so that's awesome to share that with individuals out there that you know they know that hey, I got that gut feeling as well. So and yeah, you know, you're you're the you're also doing the same thing. So I'm really glad to have you on

The Energy Of MATS Louisville

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Angela. Um, let's talk about Matt's a little bit. Um yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, that was a great, great show. A lot of people great positive added, you know, positive feedback from after the show. And um, when you look back in it, what actually stuck with you?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I think there was a couple of things, but first I just want to touch on how many people they were that were there because that was my first time attending.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

I think it was about 70,000 people. So just think about how many people that is getting together that are really pro-trucking. I don't normally get to experience something like that, so that really stuck with me. You hear a lot of negativity about our industry, a lot of complaining, was dealing with problems and stuff, and so it was just really cool to have a whole bunch just have 70,000 people all dedicated to like making this industry better. It was uh big energy.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Nice, yeah. I I say the same. I mean, I think that was great to see the show out, show up and show out there, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

And then the other thing was just how much um government people we had coming out, you know, like it was really nice to see you know the DOT and the FMCSA actually have people out on the floor talking to people and going to some of their meetings and listening to them talk was just all amazing. Uh, I mean, it was great to get in front of people and get business cards for people that are actually writing the laws and they're actually gonna make changes. Yeah, I I really honestly did not think that that was something that I would ever get the opportunity to do until like think about a year ago is when I started uh volunteering with different groups that were giving me opportunities for that, and it just blew me away. And everybody's like, Oh, are you uh pro-politician now? And I was like, No, not by a long shot. Um, but I think there's a big difference between a politician and somebody that's just there doing their job. And so we got to meet the people at Mats that are actually just there doing their job, and that was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, I think that's what people want most of all. So if they see that, I think the a lot of respect is done for that, especially after you know, a lot of disappointments. So was there anything you saw or heard that that changed how you were thinking about the industry, you know, when you when you first got there, and but now afterwards going to Matt's you, you're like, okay,

Foreign Influence And New Enforcement Push

SPEAKER_00 13:35

uh, this is different.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Well, I went volunteering with the driver legitimacy initiative, and um, that's the guy that wrote the framework for Delilah's Law. So um I think the one thing that struck me that the most leaving there was just um this whole what we're gonna do about the foreign influence in our industry situation. I mean, it's just going to constantly leave wheels turning in my head for a long time. And I had thought a year ago that this was a thing that we were just gonna deal with. And so leaving mats, like I had heard that there was people that were trying to change. I just I don't like I I've seen I've been in this industry decades and change is so slow. So, what really stuck me is how fast people are actually moving to get this industry changed and to tighten down on these things that are happening. There's actually push and initiative where I just I felt like it was going to an empty hole for the last five years. I really did, and I that's why I got kind of burnt out because it's that you know, like I told you before, it's not fun anymore when you're just like scared of what could possibly, you know, the other shoot-of-fall or something bad could happen. So it just was a big relief to walk away and knowing that there are people um that care so much. I didn't expect to leave and feel that weight lifted off my shoulders.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Nice. Yeah, the same here too. I had some people that wanted to invest in a brokerage and they put hit the pause button because they're like, man, that's just nuts over there with uh all the freight fraud. Maybe we should uh hang tight for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah, and you know it's good to hear people actually um thinking for a change instead of just I felt like from 2020 to 2021, everybody was just trying to get in this industry because they heard, you know, we needed help, which was true, but the help we needed was not necessarily just bodies thrown at the problem. So I think that's another thing. I don't think it's just that there was fraud. I think a lot of stuff is well-meaning. A lot of people get their information from somebody they trust. So if the person you trust has bad information, they're gonna give that to you, and then you're gonna give that to somebody who trusts you, and you're all gonna think, oh, it's okay to cut this corner on my insurance or do this or do that. And it's not okay, and it's gonna end up catching up to you.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

So it's good to see all the education that's finally getting out there to actually help people to prevent them from kind of falling into these traps. I mean, the one thing is like I think some good language is actually getting out there now from warning people about selling their MCs. Because I know a lot of people, myself included, were like, well, I'll just buy an MC, and if things really hit the fan, I can just sell that later. And that's not good, that's that that's gonna be going away entirely. And um, but I mean, moreover, just learning about all the steps you got to take when you really sell your MC and the fact that you could really end up in jail if you forget to sign one simple piece of paperwork. So just hearing that word, get out there, knowing that stuff like that has got to get stopped. And that was, you know, that's some of the, like I said, just throwing bodies at the problem because those people, if they don't know that, they don't know how to vet their carriers properly. And it's not that they're meaning to do harm, they just never got the proper training in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah, it's pretty aggressive, even if you know you just want to get your MC number or you know, the all of the uh you know requirements that you need to do to move your load across state line, how many phone calls you get? I mean, it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

I mean, it can be really insane, and that's the other thing I just would tell drivers if you asked about misperception, and sometimes I think there's this misperception that these tracking programs that like I want to watch what you're doing and what you're I really don't. I just need to have, I just need to know where he's at because we do get a ton of phone calls, and we're not trying to make their lives harder, we're trying to make everybody's life

Tracking Tools And Driver Privacy

SPEAKER_02 17:50

easier. That's why we got these programs, and we can just see, oh, you're in Lincoln, Nebraska. Okay, I know where you're at. So um, I know I don't know. I I know they have privacy concerns and everything, but that and I just would like to tell drivers we're not trying to invade your privacy. I promise you. We really could care less what you're doing. We just need our freight delivered.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

All right, yeah, it's a lot of money involved. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. I mean, man, you're you're doing it. That's uh I can tell in your voice there. You're you've been in the industry in the thick of it. Um, so yeah, a lot of the things that you see at Matt's, what's something that you know people aren't paying enough attention to yet? What would you say?

Live Insurance Checks And Hidden Exclusions

SPEAKER_02 18:33

People are not paying enough attention yet to um certificates of insurance. When you get a certificate of insurance, it is only a snapshot. So there are uh lots of companies now coming out with live insurance verification, and I strongly suggest people to invest into one of those tools. One of them is Freight Validate, they've got um a mesh VI integration. Um, and I know Highways has another one, um, but that one's a little bit more expensive. So I would just I I would push people, and if you're not able to do that, reach out, start asking questions about how you can live check insurance, because what these carriers will do is they'll call and they'll get someone put on their insurance, or they'll up their insurance rate just long enough to get the load secured, and then they'll call them back. You know, they might not even have picked up the freight, or they might wait till it's on board, and then they'll call up and they'll say, Hey, cancel that. I don't I I changed my mind, you know, because they don't want to spend the money. So it's very dangerous out here. Um, and then the other thing is also these insurance, you'd be surprised how many of them have an exclusion for fraud or um company. I think I can't remember the exact terminology, but it's something to the extent of like if any of the officers of the company are dishonest, like they that's not cause for a claim. So basically, like I don't even know, I don't even know how it's legal to have insurance. It's like to cover a load, say you have insurance, but your insurance doesn't really cover that load. I don't, I don't really know how that's legal, but these guys are in these gray areas, and that could leave you uncovered. So just take the extra five minutes to ask the information, 10 minutes, whatever. It's way better than you know, a $40,000 claim that's not going to be covered.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah, I watched uh I watched my wife look at her contract for you know getting a sales sales job, you know, sales manager or whatever, and just combing through that, you're like, what? If I don't do this, you know, just there's all these little things you need to look at. I think we spent a couple hours looking at it, and it was like, man, this this is this is not a good contract. Just because you have it in hand doesn't mean it's good.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

And then the other thing I would say that brokers need to watch out for is just because you uh have someone validated in your system does not mean that that information has not changed. So people need to set up flags in their system to review things, um, to make sure, because companies, like I talked about before, they sell their MC to somebody and that looks like a good company to you and your system, and then overnight they can turn into a bad apple. So just really keep an eye out for contact information that's changed on the FMCSA and make sure everything matches. And again, pick up the phone and call people and make sure that the person you're talking to is really that person because that could just be somebody that hijacked their email.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

So what's yeah, I mean, that's really hard when you see all those red flags and you pick up the phone and it sounds okay. Like the person sounds like they got their stuff together, but it's someone that kind of swooped in and hijacked the company. So what do you tell those individuals when you say, Man, I'm getting something different on this side?

SPEAKER_02 21:58

I mean, honestly, you just gotta tell. Them. I gotta look at other options. I'm sorry. And again, it sucks to give people bad news, especially when they're begging, like, oh, I have a driver who needs to get home and everything. But remember, everybody has a sob story. And you'll be surprised. I had I've had loads double brokered over $50. And I thought that was crazy. And then someone told me you got to understand, Angela, $50 in some countries is like food for a week. So they will take that risk.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Wow. Yeah. That's uh it's amazing um what the value of money it does for people and the choices they choose to make. Um compromise, you know, and when people's morals can't be the same as yours because they're in different situations.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

And I hate to say it, but the further removed you are from somebody, probably the less likely you are to care about them. So I I have worked with plenty of overseas offices and they've done good a good job. But I I just tell people to be cautious with that and extra vet those people because when you're 5,000 miles away from somebody, it's a lot and you come from a different culture, different background, different everything, it's a lot easier not to care about that person. And I just don't know that some of these people, some of these people, I don't think they really care whether or not it's safe for that truck to operate or, you know, oh sure, go an extra thousand miles on your brakes. We'll be fine, we'll figure it out. I don't think that matters to them so much as if their family was right here.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Right,

Competition Vs Industry Cooperation

SPEAKER_00 23:25

right. So man, relationships in the industry, that's huge. Uh where do you think the biggest disconnect is right now between brokers, carriers, and drivers?

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Um, I think the biggest disconnect is um competition. We let ourselves get so caught up in competition that like even brokers don't talk to each other. Um carriers, carriers more likely talk to each other because they're gonna network and be like, I'm getting this from this person. But we don't talk about our our pains together enough that we can work together and go back to these shippers and solve them. We just let ourselves get caught up in the competition to get the load and get the freight and get the contract, etc., to where we stop kind of like going back and being like, you know what, this is uh this is kind of a hard one to me. Let me go back to some other brokers and see if they are agreeing to do that, or let me talk to the carriers first and see if they even have drivers that are going to be able to do this. Before I put out this big uh RFP and get locked into this business, you know, people cause their really their own problems just by not being wanting to network. And I do see that. I don't know if it's just because I'm networking so heavily, but I do see that coming to an end. And I think that's another thing that was so encouraging about Max was just I don't see people being so petty about the, oh, I can't give you any information about me because you might steal it and you know go after my customers. I don't think that that's as big of a deal as it used to be. So the more we talk, the more transparent we are. I'm I I know that there's this broker transparency law where people want us to share rates on every load. I don't know that I'm necessarily for that because my rate doesn't necessarily mean anything to you. That that if I if you see that I'm moving something for $5,000, there may be another delivery on the end of that. There may be that may be part of a round trip. There be maybe money hidden in there because I uh the customer didn't pay enough on the last load and they were like, hey, I need you to do me a favor. I'm gonna slide you extra money on the next one. We work out these kinds of things as a broker, so um, that's where I'll just kind of get a little iffy about transparency on pricing. But I think there is some transparency about rates that needs to happen. Um, and I think that's a big disconnect because if we all got together, I know we're not supposed to price fix, but for crying out loud, if we all could come to some kind of understanding that you don't move under this rate per mile, I think that that would go a long way towards making things better.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Nice. I mean, that's uh that's a big problem. I think people want to make themselves seem more than they are. Um, I mean, it's trucking. I mean, why do we need to polish it up so good to where it's more than what it is? I mean, we already know it's messy, we already know logistics is it's a it's a tough show, you know. It's not right, right.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Yeah, but be honest about what you're facing, be honest about what you're paying for things, um, like repairs and stuff like that, so that we all know and can help make better decisions on this. And I just don't think there's been enough of that. And then you of course you get the big uh broker's firms that are like they don't they hire people fresh out of college and they just tell them, here's some people to call. They have no idea about any of this. So I think you know, if we could put out some kind of more large industry information to where people actually had an idea of how everything worked, that would be great. I just have no idea what that looks like. I just think more and more, more and more networking and conversations just need to take place.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, I think that's why I love that you came on the show and speak honestly and truthfully about what's going on versus uh hey, I'm gonna try to sell myself, uh, make myself more than what it is so that I can get that doesn't work anymore. I think people with um being bombarded by all the stuff that's going on in the internet, you know, AI, fake this, fake that, people are getting tired of the fake. It's kind of fake overload. So leave that real connection, you know, and that's that's what I think that's what I love most about where things are headed, is I think people want to get back to what was once lost, you know. That's uh yeah, I think that's something that people want, you know. They they want that real tangible thing, um, versus you know, the fluff and you know that's right. I totally agree. Yeah, yeah. And I I don't I don't see why we should, you know, feel bad about that or feel like we're giving up something. I think that's great. I think that's progress.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

So yeah, because I really think that fake stuff hurts, ends up hurting a lot of people because then they go out and they look and they think, oh, well, I'm the only one that's struggling like this, and that's just not true. I mean, no matter what it is, that job you have, like they all have their pain points. Um, but yeah, trucking is not glamorous. So anybody that's trying to to make it seem so is really kind of making people that struggle look like they're having an extra hard time and they're not. That's just that's just what everybody's going through.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Nice, nicely said. So, what are some

Small Habits That Build Trust

SPEAKER_00 28:35

small things that um immediately build trust and the small things that you know lose trust fast?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Um, you know, it's really simple. Just answer your phone call um or reply to, you know, well, you can reply to a text or whatever, but just get back to people quickly. You know, don't leave people waiting. And if you don't have an answer for something, go ahead and tell the person, like, hey, I'm working on that, but right now I don't know. When you leave people waiting around for you, that's when the second guessing and the mistrust starts to build up in people's heads. And I always used to tell people, you know, if you don't tell me anything, I just start to get a whole bunch of question marks that fill up in my head, and eventually they start banging into each other and causing chaos. Nobody wants that. So just, you know, communicate, communicate, communicate. And the people who communicate better, I always find are the most trustworthy.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Awesome. I mean, you mentioned some kids coming in straight out of college. What's if uh you're new to the brokerage today or to uh freight brokerage, the logistics industry. What's one mindset that you need to have right away so that you don't burn bridges?

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Remember that everybody knows everybody. Wow. At the end of the day, I mean that that guy may not know that guy, but he knows someone who does. And your circles are gonna get smaller and smaller the longer you're in the industry, and you need people. You can't do this on your own. So, and that's the other thing, it's just when you're starting to lose your temper with people, because it can get really easily to do. Just remember, you know, count to 10. You can't lose your temper. You're gonna need to talk to the keep talking to this person, and people work a lot better when they're not being yelled at, even if they deserve to be yelled at. You know what I mean? Like you have to keep it uh calm and just keep yourself measured. And if you get stressed out, reach out to people and talk, and you know, even if it means going on LinkedIn or reaching out outside your company and get some good coping skills for the stuff that you're going through. Because it can get really stressful.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah, I mean, it could be that way just going to get something to eat nowadays. I know exactly. Just get a meal at Chipotle and ain't got no meat there.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

I know. I went one time, they didn't have any chips. I'm like, how do you know how chips does it? The grocery store is right there. Like, I don't understand. And then you're hungry and you're like, I just want a Chipotle, dang it.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Gotta go all on the other side of town now.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Oh, exactly.

Chameleon Carriers And Vetting Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Oh man, so industry issues. Uh, you know, just kind of get your perspective. Uh what's one of the biggest issues that you're paying attention to for for you and your your company? What's one thing you guys got your eye on the ball for?

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Um, we have to keep our eye on the ball for these chameleon character carriers. That's the biggest thing we're having to watch right now. We just had two more that we um just cut off today. Um, and I'm in a lot of different chat groups and everything where brokers find, like, hey, check this MC number. This is connected to so and so. Can't remember. Um, it's not Big Ego, but it's the other one based out of Indiana. I think it was Tutosh or something like that, logistics. Uh, we just cut off somebody else associated with them because we found a contact name that was the same, and then we dug in and dug into highways and found out they're on the same IP address and the same VOIP. And so that's just something we'll have to watch extra closely now is contact names. And that's a new one for me. That just started a few months ago. So wow, that's work. It is, it's getting excessive. Yeah, it really is. And that's what I think that that carriers don't understand is when they are dealing with a broker that wants more information than they think is reasonable. It's I I have a joking term, I call it post-traumatic freight disorder. Like, I didn't used to worry about these things before I got in freight, but now I'm hyper-vigilant. And certain things just get me freaked out. So, like, and and that's what I talked about earlier, is like try not to carry those things forward. But a lot of people, a lot of times you can't help but carry some of that with you. So just try to be understanding of these brokers, but don't deal with more crap than you have to, of course. Nobody should have to deal with abuse or being mistreated, but just take that with a grain of salt and realize the person that you're talking to has probably just got very poor skills for handling their stress.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Wow, yeah. Come back to it, give it some time. May have to call back, you know, um at a different time. Yeah, you're right. Because uh the conversation is at a deadlock, stand still.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Well, and sometimes the people that seem like they're really angry or volatile, they're that way because they really care. So they're not necessarily a bad person, they're just having a really bad day, or maybe they're having a bad period of their life, you know what I mean? So it doesn't mean you have to deal with it, but at the same time, don't try to take it too personally and think, oh, I'm always getting treated like crap because it has nothing to do with you, unfortunately. It's just that that's what they're dealing with and they're taking it out on you.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

So yeah, I mean you're you're looking for answers. You can't go online and get these answers, um, especially as to why someone's calling. Just give me a little more. Uh, just need some, unfortunately, some hand holding right now. Um just you know, just give more information because it could be, you know, a call coming from the wrong area. So right, exactly. Yeah, you gotta, I think people gotta be willing to answer questions. It's not someone trying to be annoying.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Right, exactly. I promise you, because asking the questions is annoying to us. So the last thing we want to do is spread that around. But unfortunately, it's our job and we have to do it. So, you know, it gets much worse um when you're trying to find freight after it's stolen, which luckily I'm uh knock on wood, but I haven't had freight stolen yet. Um, I did have part of a load go missing, but that's because it was crosstalked and it eventually was located. So um that was bad enough. Uh, but I never actually had uh freight stolen or anything, but I know from talking to people it is a complete nightmare. Just even chasing down who to report it to is crazy, and then it just gets worse from there. A lot of times you never even recover it. So um that's why all those questions are being asked.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, I think the those near misses like that, having to go back and tell your people that there's something in jeopardy. I mean, the pit in your stomach, I think that motivates you to you know to ask those questions. You know, feeling like, hey, we gotta go damage control here. I mean, that that make you lose some weight right there.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

That might yeah, there's I tell you, there is no worse feeling in the world than trying to get a hold of your driver for hours and not knowing where they are and wondering if your freight's been hijacked. It is the absolute worst. I'll be ready to be like climbed up underneath the table with a blanket. You know, it's just awful.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

Because you're getting so much pressure, and you know, the the way I always describe it to people is that these customers, you know, you order a pizza from Domino's, which is no offense to Domino's, but they're not exactly the the high end of pizza joints, you know. But you order one from there and you can track that thing right until it gets to your house. So if I got forty-fifty thousand dollars worth of cargo, you can't tell me I can't see that thing for four days, you know. They're not that's not gonna fly.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah, I don't know why freight brokerage um reminds me of the movie Scarface when he goes upstairs in that hotel and they said, You got the you got the you got the stuff? And he's like, Oh, do you you got the money? Then they go back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

That scene right there, I'm like, man, that sounds like freight brokerage right there. It's just a standoff. You know, I don't have the money, it's not with me, you know. I don't have I don't know if you ever got a chance to see that movie, but oh yeah, no, I've seen that.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

I just saw it again actually a couple years ago, so that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah, classic um conversation where things aren't you know, somebody's withholding and you you're trying to get more information. We can we just make this deal?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Can we just I know exactly frustrating?

SPEAKER_02 37:00

It is very frustrating, and um you know nobody wants to be frustrated all day, so we're trying to come up with tools to make it easier, but it's like some of the automation tools that made this stuff easier is how we ended up in this boat to begin with. So it's back to the manual checks and everything for now.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

So yeah, I mean, I think um even in trucking, they uh first came out with the automatic and then they tried to go up the those passes and the mountain, and it and a lot of those transmissions failed. And so then they had to go back to the manual transmissions. Um, and then eventually they got it right, you know, and they came back to it again. So, I mean, it was nobody would go up those mountains without a manual transmission, but now it's it's like a breeze.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah, I still remember that. I remember I used to have a whole list of drivers that would not go to the northeast, period. Or like Montana, none of that. Like, just don't don't send them from Georgia towards the northeast because they can't get there. They they don't do it because they didn't have the right kind of equipment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Look at the progress.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

I know, right? Yeah, I forgot all about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Glad that's not happening right now.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

I know, one less thing to worry

Relationships Over Transactional Business

SPEAKER_02 38:10

about.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yeah. So as far as leadership and the personal approach, uh, what have you learned about working with people in the industry like this where you know everyone moves fast and the pressure is is constant? How do you stay competitive and still doing um right by the people you work with?

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Like as far as competitive with prices and everything like that, or competitive as far as service?

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Um the business to stay alive and provide the service to individuals.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

I mean, um, how do you what while still I gotta be honest with you, we do not focus too heavily on trying to be like aggressive on our pricing. Um, so we really kind of rely on our customers to tell us like if the rates are dropping and they need us to go back to the drawing board. Um, because we try to work, I mean, this kind of happened to me right after when the market fell off, like in what, late 2023? Because I was still paying carriers the same rates I had paid them the year before, and I noticed myself losing some load. So I had to go back to the customer and be like, hey, is um something going on? We're not getting this freight. So I just kind of have to watch for that. Um on the service side, we just work together. I mean, we have a very close personal relationship with everybody we do business with. So we just have to make sure we keep those relationships, you know. And you know, I gotta tell you, sometimes on Saturdays I'm uh talking to people about their personal problems or whatever I gotta do to keep that relationship going or send them birthday presents or you know, for their kids or whatever it takes, you know, to keep close. And because people, you know, that I do business with, I consider they're my friends. So hopefully they're not gonna go anywhere too easily. I mean, that's just how we do. Again, my motto is we treat people how we want to be treated, and we just live and die by that.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Nice. I like that too. It's part of our motto here at um That's the Liver Podcast, and you come on the show, you can be a friend, you got a friend for life. Yeah, yeah, thank you. That's great to have that approach with other people because um it takes away that transactional, like you said, it's more of a relationship type uh business.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

So well, I got into an argument a couple months ago with a friend of mine because she said, Well, you know, business is business, and I said I disagree, and she was like, No, business is business. So we just said I was like, I disagree. I don't, and I under I understand how people have that viewpoint, but um, business is never just going to be business to me because there are people in these businesses that I'm working with, so it's always people is people for me.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah, there's there's is some people have a switch in them where they I think they just get real cold, and um I need to be reminded that that's well you can always just demand for people not to treat you that way, but yeah, there's this, you know, where you think it's just transactional. I guess it's the best way I could put it, but what would you say? It's like a little switch in them, it's all of a sudden now it's just it's cold. What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Exactly. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah, and some people can just did you ever watch that TV show, Severance? It's like some people can be a different person when they think about it as just their job than they do, than if it's personal. So that's why I said people we do business with are actually our friends too, so there's not even an option for me to be like, oh, that's just business. Because, you know, once I once I talk to you, once we get to know each other, like you said, we're friends for life.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, it's nice to know there are people like yourself out there more. So and if if if anyone's feeling the same way, hey, you're not alone because uh um, you know, you we're Angela here, she's speaking it right here on the show. So I appreciate that. That's good. No problem. Um, I don't know. People think they uh, you know, uh they're they're on their apprentice or something. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. I think I'm I'm glad I don't have to deal with a lot of um of the companies that you know the the big complaints are I I'm not gonna name any three-letter names or anything, but um, you know, I I did deal with a couple of those big places when I was a carrier, and I know like you just get some carrier manager that's pushing you to take something. You know, you pay is $800 and they're like, come on, man, it's $350, it's good load. Yeah, I do know what that feels like, and it can be frustrating. Um, I don't think you can force some people to care, and you just have to accept that you know there's always gonna be a segment of this industry that is going to not be what you or who you want to deal with. But there's a it's a big world out there, even though I said it's small. That's only small once you find your circles. So just keep looking and find your circle because it is out there.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Yeah. And with uh a lot of help that you can get from AI, I think the circle can get even smaller, unfortunately, because now you can do a lot more work by yourself. Um something that we're we're gonna have to get used to, I guess. Because um we used to need a

AI, Opportunity, And The Next Workforce

SPEAKER_00 43:20

lot more people to do certain things, and now they're making it easier to do it with I mean, even like my this podcast that I do uh do a lot of work myself. Um yeah back in the day, you used to have a whole radio team, and you know, so yeah, you gotta get used to those changes. That's probably where we're headed until we find out that that's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

It's true, but there's also it means there's more opportunity too. You know what I mean? There was before you would have had to find a whole team to put out a podcast. Now you can do it by yourself, which is pretty amazing. So yeah, you know, I just have to allow, you know, constantly keep reframing it to ourselves and keep the passion alive, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

The passion alive, I like it. So for the future looking ahead, one of the last things we'd like to end on is what do you think uh the industry is headed over the next couple of years? Um just some predictions to put out there. It's just personal prediction, doesn't have to be anything.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Oh, you know what? That's really interesting. I honestly think there are so many changes that we are talking about right now in trucking, but I think what I'm hope I'll talk instead about what I would like to see change. I would like to see um more young Americans uh getting into trucking jobs. You know, I think that would be absolutely wonderful. And I'm hoping that with us trying to limit some of these foreigners coming over, that's something we're gonna see happen. Because I would really like to see trucking become a really good job and way for people to get, you know, a good Nest egg build up and get their start in the world, like it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

And it's not been that long ago, it's only been about 10 years. So, you know, I think some of these changes we did to help the industry grow, it just grew aggressively way too fast. And once we kind of reel it in a little bit, I think we're gonna start seeing some opportunities for us here domestically again. So I'm I'm just hopeful for that. And I'm trying to put all my energy and not just my mental energy on hoping it goes well, but also, you know, my physical work into putting out articles, writing about it, talking about it, meeting with people about it, and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Yeah, I mean, just for people that may not, you know, may not agree with that. It's just it's not something that uh patriotic, it's more so when you see young ones, uh, individuals, when you ask them what do they want to be when they grow up, you know, someone that your child, you know, let's say a father's a truck driver and his kids and he he gets them educated, go through school, you're right. What do you want to be? You know, very rarely am I hearing truck driver. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Yeah, and it's yeah, and I never, and that's touch on that real part. I never thought I would be the kind of person that would be talking about this kind of stuff because I've always considered myself, you know, actually until probably a few years ago, I used to consider myself very liberal. And then that's I guess you scale back as you get in your 40s, right? So um I'm definitely now square in the middle. And um, but I always used to think, okay, we want people to come overseas to America and have opportunities, you know. I thought it was all about that. Um, but number one, it's becoming a safety issue massively. That's the number one issue. But then number two, we have a lot of people here looking for work that need jobs. And I just don't think that trucking has something that they've considered. And likewise, I don't think a lot of these kids have considered a lot of blue-collar work. Out here, we need plumbers and electricians and all kinds of skilled workers that we just are not encouraging kids to go into these lines of work. And I think a lot of kids are graduating from college with degrees they can't use in a lot of debt.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

So these are just opportunities that I want people to know that they have, and it has nothing to do with, you know, trying to be a bigot or anything that I would have looked at that five years ago and been like, I can't believe someone said that, but here I am, it's now coming out of my mouth. So, you know, I feel the need to justify it a little bit and be like, it has nothing to do with not wanting people to be successful, it's quite the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah, yeah, you're kind of rooting for your your your offspring to be successful.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Yeah, you got to root for the home team. That's just all it's about.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Yeah, that's yeah, yeah. So I totally understand that. I also understand the other side as well. I try to make sure I'm in the middle as to, you know, when I got a chance to go to Japan and see how another country does things, and it's like, wow, there is another way. Um, you know, when you get to travel and go abroad, it's nice that you can get a different perspective to bring back home. Um, brought a lot of peace for me as well. Um, they slow things down a lot over there, and uh customer service is huge. So a lot of things that we're looking for, other countries are doing it right now. So nice.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Well, good. I hope that we can um maybe start to, you know, I would like to end on a good note with the foreign influence. Maybe we can use some of the foreign influence in a good way, and maybe, you know, instead of using it, which I think has been we've used in this country as like a race to the bottom with rates, maybe we should start using it as a way to start seeing, okay, what are better ways to do things? You know, how can we elevate our industry instead of just making it cheaper?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the the the quality of service that they provide over there is just insane. I mean, I remember I went down just to get uh um like a grub hub or something like that. Uh guy was just waiting patiently for me. I mean wow, yeah. I mean, there's no action to building. I was like, where is he? And I was looking around and he was just waiting outside the building. Um yeah, I mean, it just uh really made me think think about how I'm presenting myself, and I really try to apply it to myself. I think it was it was a good good vacation to reset, you know, my inner soul. So it was nice. There was no blue and red stuff corner, yeah. No blue and red. I as soon as I got off the plane, I was like, no blue and red stuff. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Yeah, exactly. No arguing, like they don't argue all day about what they believe in.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

That would be I don't know, I didn't hear it.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, true. That would be blissful. Yeah, it was like just pretend that they're not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah, if you get a chance, you should go.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

So definitely that's on my bucket list, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, it wasn't my wife's, you know, because she's she's actually uh some heritage from there, so she's actually gotta go. And then you know, I actually understand her better.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Um I would imagine so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

That's I was like, I get why you do that.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah, it's pretty cool. Well, man, it's been an honor to talk with you and and have these conversations. Yeah, I love podcasting. I think uh it helps the long-form interview, get to know people a little better, give people a chance, um, versus just that five-minute or three-minute clip. Might try to do a little less of those so that people actually listen to the show and uh instead of just no spoilers, right? So I don't know, that's fun. Yeah, so Angela, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective. There's a lot in the conversation. I hope people take away, especially around relationships, trust, and how people show up in the industry right now, what matters most to people more than they realize, and like

Networking Tips And How To Reach Angela

SPEAKER_00 50:35

the going to Matt's, and you got to see a lot there. I mean, that was great exposure. I'm glad you got to go. I hope to go with that.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Yeah, and also most cities have some kind of traffic club or logistics club. So if you're new in the industry or even if you're not and you've never joined a local networking organization, I strongly encourage that.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

That's beautiful. Um, nicely said. So, and if anyone um from the industry wants to share this information with someone, we appreciate it. If you have any questions or concerns about a lot of things we talked about or anything you want us to share in the future, we be sure to uh reach out to us and talk. How can people reach out to you um to find out what you guys are doing over there?

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Um the easiest way I think would to be to reach me would um be on my email. Um, and that's just angela.froning at gmail.com and it's um an g e l a dot f o N Z Nancy I N G at Gmail.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Angela Froning.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

Yeah, I should make a I should make like a really short one so people have an easy way to get get a hold of me. Thanks for making putting that in my head. Now I'm thinking about that. No, no, no, it's good. It's always like I don't think of things until they come up, and I'm like, oh, you know what? I need to be thinking about that.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

So you're also on LinkedIn too. You got a good presence, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm heavy on LinkedIn. I I never used to pay attention to LinkedIn till like a year ago, and I think LinkedIn has changed my life, so for the better.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Yeah, great value. So uh for anyone listening, whether you're a driver, carrier, or broker, there's something uh in this episode for you to take with you. Uh, we appreciate Angela coming on the show. And um till next time, that's delivered.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

All right, thank you.

unknown 52:17

Yeah.