Women Finding Trucking Later In Life

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Welcome back to That's Delivered. I'm your host, Trucking Ray, and we have another episode for you today. Really happy to have two wonderful women that have been helping out in support of African American women in trucking, the series that we've been highlighting. We're excited to be joined by two, Kelly Lynn McLaughlin and Gail Keith. We're also welcoming Kelly Lynn back to the show. She's been on before, had a previous appearance where she shared her journey into the trucking industry and also hauling hazardous material, becoming an advocate, and mentor for women entering in the industry. Today we're digging deeper into women in trucking, realities and challenges, safety, leadership, mentorship, representation, and what it really takes to survive and to be successful in the industry as a woman. Keller Lynn, Gail, thank you for joining us. Hey guys, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

How are you? Good, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Doing well, thank you. And so happy to have both of you on and get to share all of your experience. You guys have been doing a lot of great things out there on the road and off. So, man, you know, what's what's it been like for you? We'll start with you, Kelly Lynn. You know, last time we talked about how those unexpected paths into the trucking industry was especially getting started later in life after the marching band trip. Right. Yeah. What what do you think was giving you personally maybe that you didn't realize you were searching for at the time?

SPEAKER_02 1:59

I think we, you know, I think, you know, in order, you know, as a parent, in order to be able to raise your kids, put eggs in their basket, you have to put eggs in your basket. And I think being a parent takes a lot out of you. And it was time to put some eggs in my basket. And and I think that's kind of like where I was headed with this whole journey. I was looking for something new. But, you know, like every so often there's just something, a new challenge within this industry. And our industry is at a really interesting spot right now with the how fast legislation is changing. And the current administration under FMCSA and USDOT are just so quick to make decisions. And and I I really think they're doing a pretty good job of listening to drivers and where we're at and our concerns. And there's a lot of opportunity there to make some a change and make a difference in the industry. So that's kind of where I'm putting my efforts right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Absolutely. Thank you so much. And Gail, I mean, your background brings a unique perspective to transportation and leadership. What originally drew you to the trucking industry and what was your experience been for navigating the spaces where often men sit there who dominate it?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Sure. I had gone through a couple of life-changing events and life had beat me up pretty good. And I decided that it was time to retire from 25 years of marketing and owning my own agency. And I saw the classic yellow sign on the back of a trailer that said truck drivers guaranteed $2,500 a week. And I just started thinking about it. And I was like, you know what? Maybe it's time to reinvent myself. So at 54, I got my CDL, never been on a truck before, and been on this journey ever since. And kind of wish I would have started earlier.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Amazing. I mean, that's that's a big jump. And also, you know, you think you have a certain amount of freedom when you have your own business, but sometimes you can be more tied down, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah, yeah. Well, when you have your own business, even if like you're trucking and you're an owner operator, you're also your payroll person and your insurance person and your tax person. So you wear a whole lot of hats. So for me, going into trucking and as a company driver, I just get to do my job and I enjoy my job and I get paid. And I don't have to wear all those hats anymore. So that was a great transition for me.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Same here. Did you always see yourself working around transportation and uh logistics? Maybe as you were younger as a kid, you like trucks?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

No, no, I liked the show BJ and the Bear when I was young. That's how old I am. But it really uh it hit kind of like a fluke and a lot of personal evaluation about what I wanted to do and not do. And I was in a moment where I was like, I don't want to be tied to a computer anymore. I want to be independent, I want to move around and travel. Kids are grown, I'm on my own. And trucking just the more I looked into it, the more it foot the bill. And you know, I just went to CDL school and went for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Nice. What lessons has transportation taught you about leadership and communication?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Interestingly enough, I often well, occasionally I have special requests within my company to do different kinds of runs, primarily because I know how to communicate. I also advance pretty quickly into training at the company, and I'm proud to say I have a good reputation around that. And I believe it's because of a long history in communication, leadership, mentorship, and training has always been somewhat a part of my background as well. At my current company, Clean Harbors, we train primarily around hazmat compliance and our technology, and we usually recruit in experienced drivers. So I'm not training training people to drive, I'm training them to how to integrate into our company and be successful and compliant.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Right. Yeah, you want to be safe, you want to get the job done correctly. They pay them to do it right, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

I and I would I would say that one of the reasons that Gail and I are kind of drawn to each other is because she brings a level of professionalism to the industry and to her job and and understands that this is a professional career, and she always is representing that when it doesn't matter what part of the dirty facility we're on, we're still professionals. And and and I think there's a lot of people like us that are in this industry that come from a different career, and we understand professionalism, we understand the value of leadership, and and we're just taking that into a different arena, and it happens to be just a really big arena.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Let's

What Professional Driver Really Means

SPEAKER_00 7:02

speak on that. I mean, professionalism. I mean, it's one one word it may get overlooked, but I like how you highlighted it and put it out there for people to see that it is still important. Do you feel like professionalism is kind of kind of pushed to the wayside sometimes?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I think I'm constantly having that battle with people that don't think that this is that I'm not a professional, you know. And when I introduce myself, I always say I'm a professional driver, and you can see the question marks going around on their head, like, what does that mean? Is race cars? What? You know, like when I say professional driver, they don't think commercial trucks. They they just don't. And so I, you know, like I make sure I take my job seriously and I dress for the profession. And I and I care about, you know, I'm a company driver too, you know, and I'm I care about whether or not I'm making the best decisions, business decisions for my company as well. And, you know, it is it's one of the things I talk about a lot is that this is a profession. And there's nobody else in the cab making decisions for me or with me. I'm the one that is trained and in the cab and expected to make that decision in less than a second's notice, right? And you know, I'm I'm a professional and I take my job seriously.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

I think one of the things I've noticed too is different industries define pre professionalism differently. So many of the drivers that I encounter, they consider themselves professional because they're safe. They don't have violations, they manage their truck and their decisions, but then it just stops when it comes to communication or stops when it comes to how they interact with other people. Whether it's at the counter to truck stop or whether it's their coworkers, the the communication piece isn't always included in how some drivers perceive professionalism.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah, that's that's perfectly said. I mean, I couldn't say it better myself. Uh, you both are doing a great job with that and championing being a professional. You know, we're not just here to get paid. There's also something that we want to carry on, a legacy that we want to leave behind. And we don't want people to just think, hey, this trucking thing isn't really necessary. You know, when they when they when you get on the airplane and they stand there and they have their uniform on and and they greet you and give you that, you know, like you see the captains in there taking care of business, doing their checks. You feel like there's a level of professionalism here when you get on the plane. So why not be the same for the truck? So that's good.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

So reality versus the image, women in trucking. What's one thing that people completely misunderstand about women in trucking? We'll start with you, Kelly Lynn. Do you think that people are misunderstand how mentally demanding the trucking industry can be for a woman?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Well, I think there's a couple of things they really misunderstand. And the other, one of the major ones is I'm I'm not safe. I'm I'm battling it out here, protecting myself from, I don't know, robbers or you know, unsavory people or something like that. And and the second thing is, I just don't think the general public views my job as a professional career. And, you know, I'm constantly, you know, raising awareness and educating people about what it's really like for me out here as a woman. And and I do have challenges that my male counterparts don't have. I think it's harder for women. It's harder definitely for us to get into this industry. But yeah, those are, yeah, what would you say, Gail?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Well, I would say some of the profession the perception that I personally experienced was around my perception. So recently I had an instance, I was in Wyoming. The, you know, it's 50 mile an hour winds and 70 mile an hour gusts, and I have a light trailer, I'm training an owner operator, he's following me. I make the call for us, we're gonna pull over, we're just not going anywhere here. So, in my mind, I think that somewhere someone is saying if she was a man, she would keep going. And and I know that does happen, even though there might be men parked all over. If a woman parked, there might be the perception that we're weak or we're over cautious or we're not pushing through the way we should. And and you never know exactly when it's happening. Sometimes you get a comment, sometimes you don't, but it does it does come up as if we're not pulling our weight in some way. When actually, for the most part, to have any respect out here, we're often outperforming most of our male counterparts.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

That's great. I think that safety is something you should continue to hold on to because once it's gone, it's really hard to get it back. So you're doing the right thing, and those people that may have a comment, they're not the ones taking the risk. So keep doing that. Yeah, it's a great job. I love hearing that. So, uh, how important is confidence for women entering the industry? I mean, maybe give an eye-opener as to what it was like cracking that door open, and then you know, like you're doing now, you're busting it down. But what was it like for you at first when you took a peek?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

I I gotta say, I still don't have confident days.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Oh yeah, I'm like trucking.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah, I'm like, I still feel like a rookie every once in a while. I'm like, when am I gonna learn everything I need to know?

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, same here. Yeah, it's hard finding the resources and the time, right? So how about you, Gail?

SPEAKER_01 12:38

I I can see uh so I've been at it for six years, and I can I know where my confidence now is versus it was that first year. That first year was brutal, you know. I everything about it because I didn't understand how truck shops worked and how you shower and how you manage all your personal routines and all of that, you have to really reinvent how you do everything in order to live on the road. And as you go along, as you start nailing that crazy backing situation and as you make a safety call, you know, to pull over the wind, and then the next morning you see all those trucks blown over, you know. And as you get places and people compliment you for getting things done and being on time and having your paperwork in order, the confidence builds. The confidence builds. And then as a trainer, as the people I train as they call me, you know, with the questions, then confidence builds. I'm not saying I'm not sometimes the shit show at the truck stop backing in, but I don't care anymore. I have the confidence to not be bothered by it.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah, yeah, I like that. Slow and steady wins the race and learn as you go and keep that level of safety up, kind of keeps you propped up where you need to be. And I I can totally see you guys doing it. I wish I could uh see you in action.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

So yeah, that's great.

Confidence And Daily Life On Road

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Maybe uh where do you run?

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Me right now, yeah. I work for United Partial Services UPS. Uh they take care of me for going all 48 states. So I have a route right now that does 6,000 miles a week.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

So you know 6,000 miles a week?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

6,000, yeah, it's a sleeper team. And so yeah, you go to different hubs and you drop off a trailer, pick up one, and take it to the next. And this one is a runner route, man. That's not a whole lot of downtime. And they pack the tight, they pack it really tight. They only give me 35, you know, about 30 minutes at each turn. And then there's no account accounting for construction or traffic, so I gotta call, let them know I'm gonna be delayed.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

But yeah, sometimes it feels real gravy, but at the same time, it's it's hard on the family when you're gone five to six days if there's a breakdown sometimes, and and then I'm saying, Hey, I gotta do a podcast. And they're like, What?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Right. Yeah, my truck actually is broke down right now, and I've been waiting two weeks for a part.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Wow. Yeah, parts parts are tough. I mean, what type of truck are you driving?

SPEAKER_02 15:12

It's a day cab, but it's a hydraulic part because I do end dumps and then roll off. So yeah, that's that's just there's another guy that I know that has been waiting for a part for three months. And I've been I'm waiting for two parts for a hot water hiater part for my house, too, on top of it. So it's not just trucking parts that are really slow right now.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

But um, yeah, yeah, it's it's definitely difficult, more than just the fuel prices. There's a lot of other things that slow things down. Yeah, and uh, you gotta get through it, but you're gonna feel the pain in the meantime.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Um, I mean, that's uh if I was an owner operator, that I mean this would be a deal breaker for me, probably to be out of work for weeks on end.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they have to be agile, think of uh some other option. I know some people have backup trucks. I don't know how yeah easy that is to get, but that doesn't sound like funny either. Cause yeah, you know, I had one route, I went on a leg, I had to change vehicles, I had to change the truck four times. I had to get out of this one, get into another one, get out of this one, get into you gotta change the bed every time and bring all your stuff with you. So yeah, frustrating, but but it's nice that that truck keeps showing up. They would tow a truck from a couple states away just to get to keep you guys moving, yeah. Spend a lot of money just to keep the wheels turning. Yeah. So yeah, that's that's a plus side of being working for a larger company. So thank you. Great question. Yeah, I don't know, you know how how to make it out there at a smaller company. You gotta be a lot more patient with the owners and and then what they can get and what's available at the time, I guess. So yeah. Uh what's your perspective on how progress has for the industry actually made it for women? And we want to look at some of the positives. What's your perspective as to what's changed?

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Mine? I think so. I've been in this industry for a dozen years now. And when I first came in, I really had to search hard to find somebody that was like me, you know, somebody that was a woman in the industry, somebody that was new in the industry. My, you know, I I really worked hard to make those connections because I felt like when I asked gentlemen for an answer, I got a man answer instead of a woman answer sometimes. And now I think there are there are more groups that are well established, like African American Women Trucking Association, the Women in Trucking Association, NextGren Trucking Association. There's way more podcasts that are relevant to the things that are on our mind, right? So it's I think it's easier now to find groups and find conferences and ways to connect with other women in the industry. And what was the other part of your question?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah, I mean, the advancements, I guess, does it seem like the industry is moving in the right direction? How do you feel

Pay Fairness And Training Failures

SPEAKER_00 18:24

about it? Or have you had a good experience?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, I think some of the things I am still talking about today that I was talking about 12 years ago and asking those same questions. And some of the things that are still kind of, I think that we need the industry needs to grow and change on are is driver pay and eliminate the per mile pay and pay us for all of the hours that we work. I I do not agree that the industry should be exempt from the Fair Labor Standards Act. We work 70 hours a week. I think we need overtime. And there's costs that come to us and our families personally by working that schedule. And I also think the onboarding training environment for women in this industry needs a serious hard look. It's not okay, the training environment that we go to after we get our CDL, and then we're onboarding with our company. And I'm I just want to say, shame on you to the industry for those training environments that are standard in this industry. It's really hard to find a company that has a training environment that doesn't require you to share a cab with your supervisor or as a trainee, trainer to share it with your subordinate. And the truck often doesn't stop. And the trainee often is supervised, gets a night shift, and is driving at night unsupervised, not getting any training or instruction. And the I I really, I just I don't think that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

I mean, I think that's amazing. You're you're you're a hero for a lot of people out there to get that out there. Because you know, what's weird is even with that training and that environment, when you do try to say something, it's like something's wrong. Like, why why are you trying to rattle the rock the boat, you know? Yeah, so I mean, why why wouldn't you want to say that?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

I'm still having this conversation, right? That's the thing that hurts, you know, that you work so hard. I literally have dedicated years to some of these topics, and I'm still having these conversations. And I'm getting old, I'm not gonna be here forever. Who you know, somebody there's either gonna be some change or somebody else has to come up and take this on and carry it forward.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

So yeah, yeah, trying to raise the burden lower. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, well, I'll play off of what Kelly said a little bit about the training environment when you're new to trucking. I onboarded with a mega carrier, and it it was just really nothing short of horrific. There and no concern. And what she said, having me, I was driving in experienced with a you know, a driver trainer asleep in the seat. And being in a truck, they want you, they get you trained as fast as you can so they can monetize you as fast as they can, not train you into safety, not anything. It's just the uh the wheels are gonna move more with a trainee in there. And then the trainers that I met when I was onboarding into trucking, they were just in it to make a few extra bucks. There was no train the trainer. There was no, here's how adults learn, here's how you know someone has comprehended processes and can execute on what you train them. They had nothing. So it was it. Was it was really rough. I'm very proud to be part of the training group at Queen Harbors. Of course, most of our train, most of our new drivers are experienced drivers. So it's a whole different world that we're training from a compliance standpoint. But we never try to make anybody spend the night in a truck with a stranger. Trainees go to hotels every night. The company pays for that. Everybody is treated, treated well, and training is done without any deadlines. We're there to make sure you're safe and compliant and understand, not to get the load to the end point. That's a separate function.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, I like that because it's hard to go back and retrain someone. So you have that time, you have that moment. Why not take advantage of it and make it really impactful for the person in a positive way? You know, of course we could do it in a negative way, but that's we had enough of that.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

So yeah, and that's why I'm there too. I searched long and hard when I decided to make my next transition in trucking to find a company that aligned with my values. And Clean Harbors was there. And I actually met them at a women in trucking conference and had interacted with that company several times. And at one point, I even I even met the founder and he asked me, he's like, What can I do to make this a better company for women? I went right down my list and he checked almost all the boxes. I was like, Maybe I'll come work for you one of these days. And and I did, but you know, there are so many companies that are not like this, and it's not even a discussion that we have in the industry with people that are coming in, like at CDL schools or on chat forums. This, like your onboarding training environment conversation rarely comes up, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah, yeah, it seems like uh there's a pothole in the industry that just won't get fixed.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Uh, what

In Cab Cameras Trust And Privacy

SPEAKER_00 24:24

do you think about cameras in the truck where they're using that to train you instead of the human interaction to just fix you, you know, call you out when you did something wrong instead of giving you the proper training from the beginning. You know, they don't give you the good training in the beginning, but then they want to use the camera technology to I'm gonna let Gail take this one first.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Well, I mean, two two things. There is a TikToker trucker, his name is Bob, and he spells it B-O-B. That's part of his tag. He was talking about the cameras coming in and if he is more or less distracted, and he made this point that drivers are in his point of view from having driven for for 30 years, he feels he is less distracted. It's just now that technology can match up because prior to the cameras and prior to some of the GPS, he said he was driving down the road with, you know, a brick phone here and a map on a steering wheel and trying to figure things out. And, you know, a lot of distractions in that, or having to stop and make phone calls before that, or you know, the CB microphone in his hand, you know, a lot more was going on. And he said, you know, now that I have GPS and there's the ELD, I'm very focused on driving. But now we have the cameras that are going to essentially they can be programmed to just nitpick a driver, you know, if you're too long in your mirror or if you're not focused here, or you reach for your coffee. And I feel like if a company is at that point where they don't trust the human being behind the wheel, maybe they're the companies that are time to go to autonomous trucks. Our company is onboarding cameras. They're focused on is your seatbelt on, are your hands on the wheel, hands free? And then it's all everything else is forward-facing. I'm not a big fan of the cameras coming in because of all the privacy things. You know, when you're in that seat for 14 hours a day, all kinds of human things happen. And I so I don't want that. However, you know, I think we just kind of have to face the facts it's coming because if it reduces insurance claims, which at the end of the day, it's always about money. So if a company is going to be able to save money with the cameras, they're going to move forward with it because that is always the driving factor.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yeah, always comes back to money, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Always, always.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Wow. So those are some really great topics you guys brought up, and I hope people get to listen to it and and uh take some time to ponder on it. Where can we improve in the industry? And enough is enough. Why how many more years do we need to go by, like you said, before we get to point and try to make a change? Just a few more minutes or a few more hours can make a huge difference. Slow things down a little bit too. I think uh the quality of which we do things and how we say things, and we don't have to be so fast to get it done and check the box. We can slow it down and make sure we do a good quality of the conversation with people that really that they can remember touches them deeply because this job is heartfelt. You have to really care, and so that comes through in the conversation, and then that person can receive it well. So, yeah, keep going, guys. So, I

Why ATA And Mentors Matter

SPEAKER_00 27:37

mean, women and trucking, I mean, you guys are leaving an impression. The more you guys are coming into the industry is helping us out, we need that help. So I think the representation, mentorship, and ATA has been doing a great job since this episode is about ATA. Why are organizations like African American Women and Trucking Associations so important right now? What would you say, Kelly Lynn?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

I well, I'm the I am the ATA member in our little team here. But the reason that I joined ATA is I knew Nicole Ward professionally, like we met up at several different points in the industry, like at a conference and at truck shows, and we were on similar boards together. And I really respect her as an individual, and she is so full of energy. And like you said, this this is one of those industries I think she cares, right? And and I know after I was on, I was on the FMCSA Women of Trucking Advisory Board, and we really spent a lot of time talking about barriers to entering the industry, and it's clear that African American women, Native American women, Hispanic women, just women of color in general, have more barriers than the white ladies. And it's something that I'm never gonna experience because I'm white, right? And so, in order to be able to help these women, I need to be more well informed about what some of their challenges are. And that's why I joined Ana. I was and and I even called Nicole and I said, I'm I'm a white girl. What do you think? If I joined your association, is am I gonna get lots of shade? And she's like, no, she's like, you know, everybody needs their allies, we're better together. And it's the same thing that I said in other venues, right? Other arenas, other conversations, we're better together. And it's the same with Ana. And so I volunteer for them at Matt's and I donate to their scholarship fund. I donate office equipment to their office so that their interns will have MacBooks in order to be able to do their work. And in return, I'm just staying tuned in so that I can learn more about how to support women of color in this industry.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

So that's thank you for your contribution. Yeah, that's uh that's amazing. You know, sometimes when we get involved in something that we don't know where it's gonna go. We we see the title, you know, we say, hey, what does this involve? But the more time you spend when I can see and I can hear it in your voice that the quality is there, and it's not to bring other people down to where we're struggling, but it's to elevate everyone up to that higher level. So that's I think that's what what you're doing. Please keep that up. And Gail, um, how about you? How is this uh organization personally helped you or what you've observed?

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Well, Kelly is such a powerhouse of support and mentorship for women just across the board. I find that it regardless of industry, individuals who have a support system and have a community are able to excel better than those who are floundering out there on their own. So any, it doesn't the organizations matter, but whatever niche creates the community that helps people to, you know, have their back so that they can go out there and work, it's good for all of us, whether that is a genre of women going into trucking or men going into nursing, you know, that because things happen. It's like we all need to understand we have lots of options, lots of choices. And the more support we provide, whether it's formally through organizations and associations or just one-on-one mentorships or experience, the better everyone is. There's no reason to hold any industry to a certain demographic or profile anymore. You know, everybody should have their choice to live their life the way they want and earn their living the way they want. True.

unknown 32:03

True.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Isn't that amazing? Ah man, you said it so nicely. You know, the fact that we can be together at something versus fighting against each other. Wish we had more of that going on in the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Right, right. And it's an unnecessary fight. There's enough room for everybody. Yeah, there's enough room for every you know, trucking, the common conversation for has it been a decade? There's a shortage, there's not enough, you know, and that it's such a high turnover. So there is room for everyone in trucking to learn and find the niche within this industry that works for your individual life, whether it's local, regional, construction or hazmat, like what we do. There's lots of options.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

And then there's lots of room for training. So instead of just discipline, you know, you want to see, hey, well, we the person, we gotta take care of this, we gotta get rid of that person, or we can try to help that individual elevate their career to a higher level, like you mentioned earlier, the professionalism that we need in the industry. So hold on to the drivers and and you know, go for the ride, right? This is this is the journey together. Logistics and transportation.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

I'll risk and put in a shameless plug here again for Clean Harbors. If you're a woman and listening and considering trucking or considering a company, I would say one of the reasons why women do very well with our company. One is a driver, when you're running hazmat, there's a level of administrative work that is not present when you're running freight gravel agriculture. And usually women, somewhere in their background, they've done some administrative work. They know how to handle paperwork. So that gives them an edge already, where a lot of men find that aspect of hazmat very frustrating, very tedious. And it just women just seem to grasp onto it because we've usually had that role at some point. And also I've heard the statistics that you know, women are women are safer, we're cheaper to insure, we have less accidents. So when you're doing a dangerous job, you know, who who do you want behind that wheel? You know, whose reputation and statistics fit that wheel the best to be safe, to save the company money, to make decisions in favor of safety. And that's why, you know, we really welcome women in. And I love when I get to train a woman is probably one in every seven or eight people is a woman, and I get very excited about that. Because for the most part, it's still men coming through, but it's exciting when a woman does.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, and they just put out this last week. I noticed they put out the number of female drivers, women drivers that we have in our company. We're still at 14%. So we're we're right there with the national average. Yeah, but I think we're a better than average company.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yes. Yeah, the numbers are something to look at, you know, when it comes to equal pay and also the equality of you know how many women are in the industry, like you're saying, 14%. Is that something that we are okay with? We gotta really take a good hard look at that as individual, as companies, and as a group, like you said, as a community. Are we being there? Are we are we showing up for each other? So yeah, great job, guys. Yeah, I can't say it enough. This is thank thank you guys for being able to come on the show and talk about these important topics, these things that concern people to let them know too that they're not alone. So, as

Road Safety Mental Health Burnout

SPEAKER_00 35:40

far as safety, survival, and awareness. I know safety is something women often think about differently on the road. You see these rest stops being built. I know there's some progress there, but what are some realities around safety that people outside of trucking don't fully understand?

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Maybe you want to start Gail? Yeah, I'll speak to that. My first year of trucking, I really did think that it was going, you know, people said you have to have a gun, you have to have a taser, you got to be ready, you know, all of these things. Most of that for me was not true. I can only speak from my own experience. The better I got at just being smart and aware and safe, the less issue I have from other truckers or human beings. I have the same risk as men. It's the weather, the road conditions, the motorists on the road, you know, the lack of parking, the lack of lighted parking, you know, all of those things, that's the same for all of us. It doesn't matter if you're male or female, walking across a dark parking lot, you know, just the risk of twisting your ankle and falling down in stale urine is high. It's very high for all of us. So all of those things are, you know, are broad for trucking. And in terms of the the female things, I think different people have different experiences. I get very concerned for the young women coming in. I think that it is it may be so easier for someone to approach them, to say things to them, and they might not have the life experience to shut that stuff down yet. I feel like I have the life experience to shut a lot of that stuff down and it just kind of goes away because nobody, nobody really wants the confrontation. So I have a lot of concern for young women who come in and hoping they get the best experience without having somebody rattle their cage as they learn and get confident.

unknown 37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah. How about you, Kel?

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Um I have had safety issues. They have never really been from, they've never been from anybody in my company. I consider truck stops my safe place. Everybody else is doing the same thing I'm doing. We just want to do what we're doing, right? And the issues that I've had have been at customers or other other places that I've I've had risky, unsafe situations. And and I agree with Gail that you know it's going throughout my job, I look at safety as a self-awareness issue. And it's up to me to do good trip planning, to pay attention to my surroundings and make good choices, just like I raise my daughters who do when they go to the shopping mall or they're on a cross-country trip. You know, you need to, you know, if your antennas are going off, there's a reason they're going off, and you need to listen to your antennas. And part of that is paying attention and making good choices. Truck drivers, and as a general rule, are not my safety issue. My safety issue is other vehicles and other people that are making unsafe situations for me that are not in they're not other truck drivers.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

So behind the wheel and they seem like they turn into a different person.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, like just yeah, I mean, like at customers, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

I'm not sure why.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

The entertainment, right? I you know, like I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up to a customer and everybody's head turns and they're just waiting for you to make a mistake. They're not sitting there cheering you on, they're staring because they're like, oh, look, let's see if she can really do this, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah, like it's a competition or something, one of those uh reality shows or something like that. See if it's something somebody's gonna mess up where they're gonna leave the show or something. I don't I don't know where their mindset gets instead of just helping someone out. I mean, or they get the cameras out. You know, I gotta get a video. Don't wanna just step over there and say, hey, what can I help you with? You know, that good customer service. Like you said, you're at their place to help them get their goods. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, that is confusing.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Um, I I gotta say, I've never I've never been in a situation where I thought a gun would help me. And I've traveled internationally around the world for to many different countries, many dangerous areas. I've had guns pointed at me both on my and my job and overseas. And I never once thought that a gun was what I needed. What I needed was to make a good decision to exit the area, and that was my safe decision. And you know, this industry, though, I do have to say, you know, you're familiar with Project 61, right? And the reason Project 61 is called Project 61 is because 61 years old is the average age of death for a truck driver, which is sad. And that is unsafe in itself. And I'm glad that there are people and organizations that are raising the awareness and hoping and trying, working towards making a difference for us, right? And if you look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, our truck drivers die at an alarming rate, you know, when crashes go wrong for us, they go really wrong. And the majority of crashes, in my perception, are not are not caused by the professional driver. It's something else that another driver that caused that. Yeah, we are held to a higher standard because we are the professional. And I was just having a conversation a couple of days ago with a new driver, she's two years in, and she was complaining about other drivers, and that they were annoying her, and she was getting angry. And I'm like, look, you know, the the reality is we're the professional, so it's our job to anticipate what they're gonna do and to avoid them. That's your job, and getting mad at them is not gonna alleviate the situation. You need to remove yourself from that situation, you need to slow down and let them go on, they can go on and crash somewhere else. But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, mental health too is wellness and keeping that balance, mental health and trucking doesn't just get talked about enough. Both of you, you you know what it, but how do you protect your peace of mind in a demanding industry?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

For me, I came into the industry having already done a lot of work in being at peace with myself. You're you're alone a lot, facing a lot of obstacles by yourself. Whether I just recently like was driving in one of my air hoses, came off the trailer, weak in air, weak in air, and I'm like in Houston, you know, with the container trucks, like flying by me, and here I am, like, oh my, you know. So it's like you have got to have a peace of mind so that when things do happen, again, you can make the safe decision to get off to the side of the road without endangering other people and to handle things. And then also when you're alone, you have to just like your diet, you have to put things into your brain that enrich your mind, whether that's you know, podcasts or things that are uplifting or or what have you, you have to make a conscious effort to say, I've got to keep my brain and my wellness and my mental health healthy. It's not automatic. You, whatever you are putting in there or or not putting in there is what's gonna come out, just like your health and your body. If you're gonna eat, we all know if you're gonna eat sugar and carbs all the time, you're gonna develop diabetes, and you know that's gonna impact your impact all of your health. But we don't talk about the mental health diet that you need and how that has to be maintained. And you have to have a routine to keep your keep your head together. It's lonely and it gets hard.

unknown 44:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

What what advice would you give women struggling with burnout? Start with you, Kelly, Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I have called my boss before and said, Look, I I I need some time off. I am completely I'm just exhausted. I I just got to take a few extra days off. And that's humbling to do that, to say, hey, I know you need me to do this. And but I just can't right now. I need a couple of extra days. And I have the best boss in the whole wide world. And I I I love that I have that relationship with him and and he understands that sometimes you just need to take a break. But also when I do my 34s, I really try and go adventuring and explore the place where I'm at by foot. I don't do Ubers hardly ever. Maybe if the weather's bad, I would Uber somewhere. But I will usually spend about eight hours just walking wherever I'm at. And I get, I enjoy it. You know, it's like I'm investigating the town. I'm seeing, you know, like what neighborhoods are like. And I think you get a real feel for, you know, who's living in a community when you're just walking around by foot on that. And that's one of the things. So, you know, you're getting your exercise in there and you're just clearing your space and you know, doing something different. And that's, but I also I try and stay connected with my family and friends. And you know, I'm only uh have a couple of hours in the evening to eat and exercise and do my paperwork and all that kind of stuff, but I do try and maintain those connections because early on in my driving career, I got really lonely and it and I just I just felt like I was out there all by myself.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Yeah, I remember that story you told me about COVID COVID where you were driving and there was nobody around and the peace that was was out there too. I mean, you you still you you you took the time to see the positive in it. I mean, I think that was great. What would you say, Gail? Is physical stress or emotional stress? Which one's harder?

SPEAKER_01 46:33

I I don't know if I could rank them. They each have their place and it depends on what's going on. Like, you know, I have been trapped in an ice bank for three days in my truck when it was minus 12 in Nebraska. That was a kind of mental stress I was not prepared for. Because if I stepped outside my truck, like my glasses froze, it hurts to breeze. I'm a Phoenix girl. That was that was insanely mentally hard. The physical stress, you know, at the end of the day, when you've been driving, and I'm a long haul driver, I stay out for four to six weeks at a time. So it's like, you know, over the course of a couple of weeks, if I neglect myself and don't do the things like Kelly said, get out of the truck, especially on your 34s, and go do something. Anything. I it doesn't even matter if you go sit at the bar at Applebee's, just get out of your truck and put your phone down and look at the world so that something else is happening for you, that you're not just at a windshield or not just in your phone, let your brain absorb other things. But it's the the message I I had, and I have had good mentors in this industry, is this a conscious thing? It doesn't happen automatically to be in this industry and maintain your health. You know, if when you get unhealthy, it's because you've gone out without any kind of plan, without any kind of backup, whether it's food or mental or what have you. But getting out of the truck is probably the most important thing you can do.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Wow, that's nice.

More Women Better Stops Better Work

SPEAKER_00 48:08

I mean, what would you guys both say? And when it comes to the industry, if you were to imagine more women in the industry, what would it look like? What would you have you guys thought about that? And and maybe like say, hey, one day it'll get to this point where women are it's like a 50-50 or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

I am certain the urine smell at the truck stops would go away. That is one improvement I'm certain of. Yeah. In the situation, I'm sorry, I'm blaming men on that. It is out of control.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Yeah, I I would have to agree. Yeah, or some sort of yeah. Well, anyway, uh could you just go? Yeah, okay. So I don't even want to talk about it. Uh-huh. I think the 70-hour work week would be shot to smotherings.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Nice. I really, really, I like these projections. Yeah, because they can get pretty rough out there. The odors, the smells, the sights, and the hours. So both of those, hey, I'm I'm hoping for that too. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Yeah. I mean, well, okay, so you're a team driver, right? You do 6,000 miles a week. How do you get out of the truck?

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Like, yeah, it's um if if there's not any spot where we're sitting still waiting for a load, then you're going. Yeah. If you want to stay out there longer, maybe don't have a family or a single person, maybe you don't mind. You know, a little extra time if it allows it in your schedule. But uh, other than that, yeah, it's a runner. Yeah, you gotta keep going. You know, I know EPS is has a you know, we're we're kind of pampered a little bit. So I I know we're I know we have that part about the industry, but there's some things too that they put in a lot of hard work to get to where they're at. And also for women and being a part of a union, um, there's a lot of pluses to that too, being having a collective voice. There's some downsides, I guess, that the union can come with, but if you just focus on the positive and it keeps you going, I do see a lot of women working for UPS and they seem to they love it, they seem to be doing great, smile on their face. So yeah, put a plug out there for UPS, huh?

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Well, I actually have a friend, she was in the yellow when that dissolved, and she wound up, but she drives as a team driver for UPS as well now, and she's really happy, she's doing well, and yeah, is another good one too.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

I heard yeah, they they're pretty pretty steady growth, and they let you get your job done, they don't harass you. Uh heard a lot of good things about them. I hope that's true across the board, and um champing those guys on too as a union shop. So, yeah, grass is never greener. I I say in the truck industry. You gotta be careful, careful trying to look too far over there at what you what you don't got. You gotta be thankful what you do got. So on that, and that's too women and trucking. You guys are doing a great job with that too, focusing on what you need to do to to get those numbers and to be the safer option in the seat. I like that. Keep going with that, and it'll raise the bar for all of us to keep that instead of lowering it. It's too easy to let the bar slip. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Yeah. And I and I and I do think that you need to consider if when you're in this industry, it's a profession. And so make a make make set your goals and and your career goals so that you have a plan and that you're working towards something and build putting more skills in your back pocket, right? That's how I wound up where I'm at. You know, I did dry van for a while, and then I was a trainer, and then I went and did specialized equine, and then it's hazmat, and I'm operating equipment that I I really didn't ever plan to operate, but it was a good challenge. You know, I still have other things that I want to do in the industry, like I really want to do oversize, overweight. I would love to haul windmill blades through the country. I love driving out in the country. And to have a hundred or a hundred and fifty foot-long blade, I don't even know how long they are, but they're long. I would love to have that challenge and and be the one that's hauling that.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Yeah, they look like something, don't they? How about you, Gail? Any last words you want to put in for the women out there to keep going, to keep trucking?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah, I think women by nature, we do keep going, you know, and just know, you know, is it's not about whether you're gonna get knocked down, it's about getting back up. And this industry, and like many, like many industries, you're just gonna get beat up. Don't let it set you back. You're gonna get stronger and know more each time. And if it is getting you down, get yourself a community. Start talking to people. We're there to support. We we all talk to each other, and it's important to talk to people who are in your industry and doing your job, you know, because they can the everybody has their stories of when they sat in the driver's seat and went, What the hell am I doing? Why am I doing this? Every one of us has that story, and that can help lift you up and carry you through to another year.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you guys are champions of doing that. Kelly Lane and Gail, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you coming on the show. Having an honest conversation about what women go through, their experiences in the industry, especially in the things people don't always see or talk about publicly. You guys aren't afraid to tell them what it's like. So keep doing that. Yeah. So what I love about the conversation like this is that they they go beyond trucking and they're about confidence, leadership, resilience, safety, mentorship, and that community that you talk about too, with Ada and all the other organizations that are out there that are behind you, helping you do what you need to do, that no, know that you're not alone, and that there's a space for you in the industry. So keep that great work. I hope to see more women in the industry. And I think organizations like African American Women and Trucking Association are helping create those communities, and that's what the focal point should be. Yeah. So

Where To Find Kelly And Gail

SPEAKER_00 54:28

before we go, I want to let you guys know that where where can people uh show the support for you guys or you know, or just kind of connect with you guys in the future for maybe any questions or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

Well, you can find me on go go. I was gonna say that probably the best way to connect with me professionally is through LinkedIn. And then I have other socials, but they're very family-based. So LinkedIn would be the place.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Yeah, I would say LinkedIn for me as well, but you can also find me through African American Women Trucking Association or Women and Trucking Association as well, because I'm on their image team also.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

So that's awesome. So two for one deal here. And thank you guys so much for being on the show. And as always, uh, this is another episode of Das Delivered. I'm your host, Trucking Ray. Until next time, stay safe, stay driven, and keep rolling.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Thank you. Thank you.